Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Zoupa]

They do not have full control over life and death.  They have not rescued the hostages.  Hamas continues to fight.

What do you think the odds are that the hostages are still alive. 70 % of structures in Gaza are rubble. Those 2000 pounds bombs kinda don't care who's around when they explode.

[Josquius]

70% of Gaza has been declared a no go zone. This is a unrelated issue to Israels complete control of Gaza.

Pretty sure gaza city where the physical health ministry is located is part of this. But besides the point.

Really?

Yes, really.

I notice you have avoided everything I said to pick one unimportant word....

[Razgovory]

They do not have full control over life and death.  They have not rescued the hostages.  Hamas continues to fight.

Really? Those babies have patriot batteries keeping the Israeli war planes from destroying whatever they choose?
There's something other than a slight thought about domestic and world opinion keeping soldiers on the ground from just machine gunning down whoever whenever?

I wonder what your views on Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane are?

April, 1945 Josq's Grandfather in Germany

Sgt:  Hey Proto-Josq,  Go feed those people
PJ:  But they are shooting at me
SGT:  We occupy Germany, it's fine.
PJ: We only occupy 70% and the Germans haven't surrendered.
SGT: We have a duty, go bring some food to those Hitler Youth manning the mortar.  It's a war crime if you don't.  Just think of the children.
PJ: Okay.

<splat>

Narrator: In the this world Josq was never born.

~fin~

[Josquius]

They do not have full control over life and death.  They have not rescued the hostages.  Hamas continues to fight.

Really? Those babies have patriot batteries keeping the Israeli war planes from destroying whatever they choose?
There's something other than a slight thought about domestic and world opinion keeping soldiers on the ground from just machine gunning down whoever whenever?

I wonder what your views on Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane are?

April, 1945 Josq's Grandfather in Germany

Sgt:  Hey Proto-Josq,  Go feed those people
PJ:  But they are shooting at me
SGT:  We occupy Germany, it's fine.
PJ: We only occupy 70% and the Germans haven't surrendered.
SGT: We have a duty, go bring some food to those Hitler Youth manning the mortar.  It's a war crime if you don't.  Just think of the children.
PJ: Okay.

<splat>

Narrator: In the this world Josq was never born.

~fin~

1: Did you see Masters of the Air?
That last episode with the air drop into territory (occupied Netherlands) still under German control?
It did happen.

2: Israel controls all of Gaza. The 70% is a no go zone business is different. You could see that as control++.

3: Is Israel keeping the population from that 70% well fed?

[Razgovory]

The question isn't "did we do that". The question is are you ok with the IDF denying civilians food because Hamas is not surrendering.

(btw it's a war crime, but we know you don't care about these pesky terms).

Still waiting, Raz.

I believe that blockades are legitimate, as do you.  You said it about Gaza, I quoted you a few pages back.  Hell, you endorsed Morganthau plan for Germany after the war.  A plan that entailed the starving of millions.  If we could really cut off food imports to Russia and force them out of the Ukraine, would you do it?  Of course you would.

You're misrepresenting my words, again. I said once this is over, there should be zero contact between Gaza and Israel. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Not sure what the Morgenthau plan has to do with anything? The point of that plan was to turn Germany into an agrarian society, stripping it of it's war-making industry. It's literally the opposite of starving people...

Of course I would cut off any exports to russia. It's the biggest country on the planet my dude, you don't think they can grow some wheat? Google tells me they only import 35 billion USD worth of food annually. I'm sure that mostly fruits and stuff they can't grow. I wouldn't want any civilians to starve though, and would be fine with sending them whatever they needed like we routinely do with North Koreans.

And yes, you can blockade legally, but not when it results in civilian starvation . Do you just not care about international law, the Geneva convention etc?

Fine:  Israelis should withdraw and close the borders.  Morganthau plan was estimated to kill millions of people it would have been a war crime. Russia isn't exactly great with feeding itself.  Without importing machinery and fertilizer they probably would have serious problems with hunger.  But if that's what it takes to beat the Russians...

And no, I've stopped caring about international law and the Geneva conventions.  In Iraq and Afghanistan we followed the rules (well mostly), and our enemies did not.  They were triumphant and will never be seriously punished for their transgressions, just like the Hamas members, who flagrantly violate international law will never be punished.  In fact they many in the UN will celebrate them.  What good are laws that punish those that follow them and reward those that do not?

[Razgovory]

1: Did you see Masters of the Air?
That last episode with the air drop into territory (occupied Netherlands) still under German control?
It did happen.

2: Israel controls all of Gaza. The 70% is a no go zone business is different. You could see that as control++.

3: Is Israel keeping the population from that 70% well fed?

1: Don't have AppleTV
2: Israel can't control all of Gaza and still have a 70% no-go zone.  Israelis claim they only control 70% of the country.  Hamas is still fighting, they still have a pretty good number of fighters.  
3: Fuck if I know.  I was told that in 48 hours 14,000 babies would be dead.  That was May, so maybe nobody is left.

[Josquius]

1: Did you see Masters of the Air?
That last episode with the air drop into territory (occupied Netherlands) still under German control?
It did happen.

2: Israel controls all of Gaza. The 70% is a no go zone business is different. You could see that as control++.

3: Is Israel keeping the population from that 70% well fed?

1: Don't have AppleTV
2: Israel can't control all of Gaza and still have a 70% no-go zone.  Israelis claim they only control 70% of the country.  Hamas is still fighting, they still have a pretty good number of fighters. 
3: Fuck if I know.  I was told that in 48 hours 14,000 babies would be dead.  That was May, so maybe nobody is left.

1: You should find a way to watch masters of the air, it's good. This episode showed Operation Chowhound, a well written up event.

2: It makes perfect sense. I control my house, you can come visit me, but stay out of the basement, that's a no go zone.

Israel has complete control over Gaza, it can do what it wants wherever it wants. It has declared nobody is allowed in 70% of it. The other 30% is where civilians are allowed to be but they're still under Israeli control.

I trust you aren't uninformed enough to think 30% is still controlled by Hamas and there's an active front line as in Ukraine.

I ask you too, were Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane OK?

3: a lot of babies are dead. Lots of horrid stories and pictures coming out of Gaza.

[Razgovory]

Imagining a race swapped Palestine


Let us imagine that Trump's deportation scheme goes wrong.  Terribly wrong.  Instead of driving out illegal immigrants, it reignites the old Chicano movement.  Why should they have to leave?  It's their land, they are the indigenous people after all.  So they fight back, and in some kind of miracle they win.  The war against the feds goes to nascent state of Aztlan (current states of New Mexico and Arizona).  During war the MAGA flees, and quite a lot of white people with them.  Some flee as refugees, some are driven out by the victorious Chicanos.  These refugees are not allowed to integrate with rest of the American population, but kept in refugee camps.  Anti-Latino racism flare across the US and entire population of Latino is either expelled or driven out.  Most end up in Aztlan.  The entire US sort of breaks, and most of the successor states develop radical politics.  Think Arab Socialism but with "Arab" replaced with "white people" along with Evangelical theocracies with some Christian Identity thrown in.  They get in fights with Aztlan, but always lose, and often lose territory and occasionally erupt into civil wars that Aztlan intervenes in.  Some of the territory that Atzlan gains includes those refugees from the original liberation war.  Over time the American successor states agree to an uneasy peace with the Latino state, but the refugees remain in their camps.  They become even more radical, they turn to the Klan and the Arayan Nations.  Klansmen march through the streets in the occupied territory (Klan-radical Islam analogy was used by American liberals shortly after 9/11.  I remember it from an episode of the West Wing).  The Klan form their own little Trumpenjugen to radicalize the populace.  They fires rockets, commits massacres, and so on.  The Aztlans respond with bombings and raids and the war goes on.  After one particularly nasty massacre Aztlan invades one particular Klan enclave and wages a merciless war and occupation.  The Klan refuses to surrender.  They have hostages and they aren't giving them up.  The war goes on and people starve.

Who does the world sympathize with?  Do college kids around the world don the white hood to show solidarity with those poor MAGA refugees?  Do Labor party members invite members of the Aryan Nations over for tea?  Does this become the cause celebre of Trotskyist, and Anarchists and every other type of Left-wing weirdo?  Perhaps Qatar funds Universities across Europe and Canada to teach people about the righteousness of the Klan cause?  I doubt it. Who here on Languish would take up their cause?

[Razgovory]

1: You should find a way to watch masters of the air, it's good

2: It makes perfect sense. I control my house, you can come visit me, but stay out of the basement, that's a no go zone.

Israel has complete control over Gaza, it can do what it wants wherever it wants. It has declared nobody is allowed in 70% of it. The other 30% is where civilians are allowed to be but they're still under Israeli control.

I trust you aren't uninformed enough to think 30% is still controlled by Hamas and there's an active front line as in Ukraine.

I ask you too, were Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane OK?

3: a lot of babies are dead. Lots of horrid stories and pictures coming out of Gaza.

2: I don't know where you get the idea that Israel controls the whole strip.  From the beginning of the month: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-july-4-2025/

3:  I'm not looking it up but I think Lidice was related to an assassination and Oradour-sur-glane was just a random massacre by SS guys going to Normandy.  No, I don't support that.  I don't think either of them involved over 1,000 fighters fighting the German army, though.

[Zoupa]

And no, I've stopped caring about international law and the Geneva conventions.  In Iraq and Afghanistan we followed the rules (well mostly), and our enemies did not.  They were triumphant and will never be seriously punished for their transgressions, just like the Hamas members, who flagrantly violate international law will never be punished.  In fact they many in the UN will celebrate them.  What good are laws that punish those that follow them and reward those that do not?

It's sad and a sign of the times that empathy has left a lot of us. I'm not sure what there is left to discuss if you're ok with starving children.

I hope you'll change your mind some day.

[Tamas]

I think ethnic cleansing is a more appropriate term to what's going on here. And it's happening in the West Bank as well.

[Admiral Yi]

What do you think the odds are that the hostages are still alive. 70 % of structures in Gaza are rubble. Those 2000 pounds bombs kinda don't care who's around when they explode.

Couldn't begin to guess.

[Admiral Yi]

I notice you have avoided everything I said to pick one unimportant word....

The rest of the post was not relevant to the issue we were discussing.

[crazy canuck]

The question isn't "did we do that". The question is are you ok with the IDF denying civilians food because Hamas is not surrendering.

(btw it's a war crime, but we know you don't care about these pesky terms).

Still waiting, Raz.

I believe that blockades are legitimate, as do you.  You said it about Gaza, I quoted you a few pages back.  Hell, you endorsed Morganthau plan for Germany after the war.  A plan that entailed the starving of millions.  If we could really cut off food imports to Russia and force them out of the Ukraine, would you do it?  Of course you would.

You're misrepresenting my words, again. I said once this is over, there should be zero contact between Gaza and Israel. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Not sure what the Morgenthau plan has to do with anything? The point of that plan was to turn Germany into an agrarian society, stripping it of it's war-making industry. It's literally the opposite of starving people...

Of course I would cut off any exports to russia. It's the biggest country on the planet my dude, you don't think they can grow some wheat? Google tells me they only import 35 billion USD worth of food annually. I'm sure that mostly fruits and stuff they can't grow. I wouldn't want any civilians to starve though, and would be fine with sending them whatever they needed like we routinely do with North Koreans.

And yes, you can blockade legally, but not when it results in civilian starvation . Do you just not care about international law, the Geneva convention etc?

Fine:  Israelis should withdraw and close the borders.  Morganthau plan was estimated to kill millions of people it would have been a war crime. Russia isn't exactly great with feeding itself.  Without importing machinery and fertilizer they probably would have serious problems with hunger.  But if that's what it takes to beat the Russians...

And no, I've stopped caring about international law and the Geneva conventions.  In Iraq and Afghanistan we followed the rules (well mostly), and our enemies did not.  They were triumphant and will never be seriously punished for their transgressions, just like the Hamas members, who flagrantly violate international law will never be punished.  In fact they many in the UN will celebrate them.  What good are laws that punish those that follow them and reward those that do not?

Well at least you are more intellectually honest than Yi.  You admit your abandonment of morality.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

seems like he just switched to another moral set, rather than abandoning morality. Probably more in line with what the rest of the world uses too (i.e. my tribe first)