Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Oexmelin]

Again, I think that contempt for politics is part of the profound problem of people who came to political maturity in the neoliberal consensus of the 90s. As if just being reasonable could stand in for principles, or even be up to the current challenges. The right has moved on much more quickly. They have no contempt for politics, only contempt for the deliberative aspect of it.

[HVC]

Thanks sheilbh. I guess Truss's second term will go much better. Worked for trump

[Sheilbh]

I think there's something to that. I also think it helps explain, for want of a better way of putting it, the lightness of politicians of that generation - certainly thinking of the British examples.

There's also a really striking paradox at the heart of it (particularly on the liberal/left side of things) that there is often a proposed technocratic answer. What you need is reasonable people to examine issues and come up with optimal policy solutions like speak your weight machines. But that idea of technocracy - of empowering expert technique or knowledge (like central bankers, say) seems to appreciate technical knowledge in every area except politics which is the exact area they propose to solve. As you say it's held in contempt or seen as the obstacle rather than the tool that requires learning.

There's no interest in the stuff of politics and its learned application - I think it's why so often their technique and style is just a continuation of what Clinton perfected in the 90s despite a radically different media environment and way of consuming politics. On that specific point I think it's less right v left than establishment v outsiders.

But I agree on the right. I think one of the biggest problems is that basically everyone seems to agree that the neoliberal consensus is on its way out - certainly as a consensus. But the only people even imagining a possible future or an alternative seem to be on the right (and it's bad). I think that's a lot of what is giving them their energy at this moment - especially as it so often casts the left and liberal side of politics into the conservative defenders of a discredited status quo ante. I think to an extent - I can't remember who said it (maybe HVC) or where - there is something to the idea that the mainstream liberal left parties successfully got rid of most of their weirdos and prophets which means the imaginative possibility within those parties is narrower.

But also I think to an extent maybe the very idea of making the case for something has slightly atrophied. Things became just the way things are - and, I'd argue, increasingly formal rather than substantive. So instead of arguing for a thing it often seems that the argument is more institutionlist, pearl clutchy and small-c conservative that this is the way we do things. Again I think often arguing in defence of a form that is no longer delivering the substance. I agree with the Economist's UK columnist that quite possibly the shock of Trump my revivify "basic bitch liberalism". That maybe on the liberal side people will stop arguing from a defensive crouch but re-discover that great 19th century fire on things like free trade, rule of law, reform, independent judiciary and effective government. And maybe perhaps the left will start dreaming utopias again.

[HVC]

I can't remember who said it (maybe HVC) or where - there is something to the idea that the mainstream liberal left parties successfully got rid of most of their weirdos and prophets which means the imaginative possibility within those parties is narrower.

It was indeed me well the jist of it

[HVC]

Politicians suck, and many are bad at their job and purpose. But we've had those situations before (seems to come in waves ) for example the American political machine. Harding is like an old school trump, as far as selling and corruption. Could just be that looking at it from amidst the storm makes it seem worse, or maybe it is worse. I'm not smart enough to know

The main difference, I think, is that while the electorate has always been dumb, now social media makes it a lot easier to spread the dumb around and get a mass following.