Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Admiral Yi]

The UK operates differently from the US.

And based on what I've read I concluded they're doing it wrong.

[mongers]

29 "terrorists" were arrested in London https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gd3pkr9x1o 

It would be capricious if the government deciding not to arrest those supporting a group it had declared a terrorist organization.

Yeah, it's not like this is a move straight out of the trump playbook or anything.

Only 26 MPs voted against the legislation.

 

[Sheilbh]

People on Reddit claimed London Pride was held up for an hour after pro-Palestine protestors threw stuff (paint, I think?) on the march. Odd I didn't see anything about it on the Guardian.

From social media it did happen but was probably not a big deal (just threw some red paint on police vehicles and the road). But also this is relatively common - in recent years climate protesters and gender critical lesbians (who were barred from the main parade) have also done this sort of protest.

On Palestine Action, it's absurd that they've been proscribed as a terrorist organisation - but as they have, as Garbon says, this kind of flows from it. And on Jos' point I think there's a fair amount of case law and guidance for the police on that because it is complicated. For comparison, the list of other proscribed organisations under counter-terrorism legislation:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(I do think wanting to commit violence against people should be a minimum criteria for being listed as terrorists...)

[Sheilbh]

Only 26 MPs voted against the legislation.

Tories and Labour backed it (I think there were about 10 Labour rebels), the unionist MPs backed it, Lib Dems split equally. Greens and SDLP voted against. Interestingly the SNP just didn't turn up.

And worth noting that inevitably the order also proscribed some more clear organisations like the Maniac Murder Club (neo-Nazis) and Russian Imperial Movement.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It would be capricious if the government deciding not to arrest those supporting a group it had declared a terrorist organization.

The red lines for me are material support and incitement to violence.  Everything besides that should be an issue for manners, not the criminal code.

The particular group in question likes to throw red paint on things, including a couple of military jets. The appropriate response would be to charge the offenders with criminal damage (which carries a sentence of up to 10 years), but the government has decided that this non-violent direct action should be treated under terrorism laws. By proscribing the organisation even expressions of support become offences under the terrorism act.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah totally agree. And I think there's a fair amount of distraction on this rather than how this group were able to break into RAF Brize Norton and right up to the planes to do it. As I said earlier, to my mind, that's borderline a resigning issue.

Brize Norton's the home of a lot of the RAF (and I think biggest RAF base), it's the sole embarkation point for British troops being transported by the RAF, it's where the royal, government and foreign dignitary planes land when they're travelling to London. It's a pretty serious security failing - half expecting to discover that we've actually outsourced military base security to G4S.

[HVC]

What happens if a prescribed group changes it's name? Is it still considered a prescribed group? If not how much of a change counts, or can they do the whole prince thing?

[HVC]

Also, what do they thow paint on? People and property I'm ok with. In the sense that normal prosecution is the best course. Art and cultural significant things and I turn more towards a "throw the book at them" mentality. And I'm not even a art guy, but the idea of attacking cultural significant things like art is abhorrent to me. It belongs the whole of society. No better, in my view, then when the taliban destroyed those statues or ISIS attacked museums.

[Sheilbh]

What happens if a prescribed group changes it's name? Is it still considered a prescribed group? If not how much of a change counts, or can they do the whole prince thing?

They have actually renamed themselves Yvette Cooper

[Crazy_Ivan80]

29 "terrorists" were arrested in London https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gd3pkr9x1o 

too bad they didn't get the rest.

[Razgovory]

29 "terrorists" were arrested in London https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gd3pkr9x1o 

It would be capricious if the government deciding not to arrest those supporting a group it had declared a terrorist organization.

Yeah, it's not like this is a move straight out of the trump playbook or anything.

No, this is your guys stuff.  I'm looking at groups that are proscribed and some have done even less than throw paint.

"National Action is a racist neo-Nazi group that was established in 2013. It has a number of branches across the UK, which conduct provocative street demonstrations and stunts aimed at intimidating local communities. Its activities and propaganda materials are particularly aimed at recruiting young people.
The group is virulently racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic. Its ideology promotes the idea that Britain will inevitably see a violent 'race war', which the group claims it will be an active part of. The group rejects democracy, is hostile to the British state and seeks to divide society by implicitly endorsing violence against ethnic minorities and perceived 'race traitors'.
National Action's online propaganda material, disseminated via social media, frequently features extremely violent imagery and language. It condones and glorifies those who have used extreme violence for political or ideological ends. This includes tweets posted by the group in 2016, in connection with the murder of Jo Cox(which the prosecutor described as a terrorist act), stating "Only 649 MPs to go" and a photo of Thomas Mair with the caption "don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain" and "Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans!", as well as an image condoning and celebrating the terrorist attack on the Pulse nightclub in Orlando and another depicting a police officer's throat being slit. The images can reasonably be taken as inferring that these acts should be emulated and therefore amount to the unlawful glorification of terrorism.
The government laid an Order in September 2017 which provides that "Scottish Dawn" and "NS131 (National Socialist Anti-Capitalist Action)" should be treated as alternative names for the organisation which is already proscribed as National Action.
The government laid an Order in February 2020 which provides that "System Resistance Network (SRN)" should be treated as an alternative name for the organisation which is already proscribed as National Action."

I don't believe that groups with with horrible ideas and produce horrible material should be proscribed as terrorist, but the British seem to have done this for quite a while now.

[Richard Hakluyt]

That's fair enough Raz and I agree with you. Annoyingly that also means I agree with JD Vance's criticisms on the state of free speech in the UK.

[HVC]

That's fair enough Raz and I agree with you. Annoyingly that also means I agree with JD Vance's criticisms on the state of free speech in the UK.

That's how it starts 

[Josquius]

That's fair enough Raz and I agree with you. Annoyingly that also means I agree with JD Vance's criticisms on the state of free speech in the UK.

Though I dont think he would mean that to apply in this case.

Also we have to note there's a key difference between Palestinian and nazi groups.
Palestinian action like the various climate groups are demanding the Govenrment take action on an issue.
Even with obvious bad comments like that of Bob Vylan (incidentally I feel really trendy for having heard of them before) is it really likely someone at their show will get on a flight to Israel and find a soldier to kill?

With the nazis on the other hand... They're trying to stir shit right here. When it's not kill the idf but kill a Muslim... That's far more of a threat on the streets of Britain (kill a Jew would be the equivalent).
National Action were celebrating the murder of a British MP. A very bad thing which is very easily repeatable and a huge genuine threat to our way of life.
Stop selling arms to Israel... Debatable whether it's a desired action but it's not murdering anyone.

Anyway. Mixing two issues. Forgetting Bob I could be wrong but I don't think PA asked for violence even?
I would agree existing laws should more than cover what they get up to without diluting the definition of terrorist.
I have to wonder if this was just a political decision as part of labours flawed attempts to court far right voters. Trying to show "look! We do it to left wing groups too" forgetting that the people they're trying to appeal to are massive hypocrites and won't really care. They'll just demand more.

[Richard Hakluyt]

We used to be far more committed to freedom than we are today. The IRA, for example, was not banned until the 25th of November 1974....five years into the troubles https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1974-11-25/debates/8422b814-468c-4637-97ef-77184fe1cde2/Terrorism

Needless to say that I dislike nearly all of these groups (probably all of them but the list may include Tunbridge Wells WI for all I know), in a free country there is no need to break the law to make your point. Conflating these troublemakers with the likes of ISIS or hamas though....utterly ludicrous and counter-productive. Though there is the rub, are we still a free country?