What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[garbon]

I thought it started at a Target department store.

If only there were ways for you and Raz to learn more.

[garbon]

I'm happy to see that garbon has finally seen the light.

I think time has taught me to have more contempt for people who treated Bush's tenure like it was a do or die moment.

[The Minsky Moment]

I know of one case where an illegal was deported to the one country a judge said he could not be deported to.

I think there may be a misconception about the term "illegal".  It is lawful to enter the United States without papers and following proper procedure, if you have a well-founded fear of persecution in your home country.  Asylum applicants are a recognized category by statute; they are not "illegal." American law permits such applicants to stay in the country while their application is heard.  They are not illegals; their presence in this country is lawful.

[Admiral Yi]

I think there may be a misconception about the term "illegal".  It is lawful to enter the United States without papers and following proper procedure, if you have a well-founded fear of persecution in your home country.  Asylum applicants are a recognized category by statute; they are not "illegal." American law permits such applicants to stay in the country while their application is heard.  They are not illegals; their presence in this country is lawful.

Your information is lovely but it doesn't describe Kilmar Abrego Garcia.  He entered the country illegally in 2016.  He applied for asylum in 2019.  A judge denied his application.  I suppose Mr. Garcia had legal status between the time he applied and the time he was denied.

[grumbler]

Planning to make a sign and then handing it out at a protest in hopes people will actually take one, is different from the sort of authority and control of protestors you were earlier proposing.

What "sort of authority and control of protestors" do you believe that I was "earlier proposing?"

[Razgovory]

So we are protesting... ICE doing normal ICE stuff?

Look I am not doing this man. Don't protest. I don't give a shit. I am not protesting at this time.

If you think just locking people up for no reason is fine, then good on you. You will love the current version of the United States.

I didn't say that.  I just want to be clear what is going on.

[crazy canuck]

Trump is shattering constitutional norms and people are worried about a flag being displayed.

Missing the forrest for the trees.

We've long had a fixation on the "right way" to protest. We are all about calling out heterogenous groups for not maintaining 100% message discipline.

I've never bought into the argument that we cannot criticize protestor mistakes because of some imaginary belief that such intellectual exercises don't demonstrate sufficient virtue signaling.

Leave groupthink to the other side.

Who said that you can't? In fact, I think I said we have a history of doing just that.

You claimed that "we" are "all about calling out heterogenous groups for not maintaining 100% message discipline."  I don't believe that this is true.  No one has claimed that a group must maintain "100% message discipline" to avoid being called out.

The objection I have is not to some mythical failure to maintain 100% message discipline, but to specific actions that I believe weaken the message the protesters are trying to send. If the organizers of these protests discouraged the display of the Mexican flag and were just being ignored, then I would dismiss the issue as "they've done what they could."  There's no evidence that I can see that the use of foreign flags is being discouraged by the organizers, and some evidence that it is being encouraged.

For Grumbler, you asked what control you were describing, and so to remind you that less than 24 hours ago you claimed that the protests we are talking about had someone who both organized the protest and who should have told the protesters how to protest.

I won't repeat all the reasons both those claims are problematic.

[crazy canuck]

I thought it started at a Target department store.

Random word association?

[grumbler]

You claimed that "we" are "all about calling out heterogenous groups for not maintaining 100% message discipline."  I don't believe that this is true.  No one has claimed that a group must maintain "100% message discipline" to avoid being called out.

The objection I have is not to some mythical failure to maintain 100% message discipline, but to specific actions that I believe weaken the message the protesters are trying to send. If the organizers of these protests discouraged the display of the Mexican flag and were just being ignored, then I would dismiss the issue as "they've done what they could."  There's no evidence that I can see that the use of foreign flags is being discouraged by the organizers, and some evidence that it is being encouraged.

For Grumbler, you asked what control you were describing, and so to remind you that less than 24 hours ago you claimed that the protests we are talking about had someone who both organized the protest and who should have told the protesters how to protest.

I won't repeat all the reasons both those claims are problematic.

So I made no generalized statements about these protests being "organized," but instead noted only that some of the protest activities were organized, as evidenced by the fact that multiple people were carrying the same professionally-printed sign.  If you find that problematic, that's on you.

I made no claims about "control" or "told the protesters how to protest" at all.  That's pure strawman.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, I misunderstood your phrasing then when you where critical of the "organizers of these protests" and in another post you took the position that the protests were poorly organized, as a reference to the protests we were talking about in LA. 

[Syt]

[crazy canuck]

The military dictatorship phase is starting. 

[Tamas]

I agree with you here here. I think, however, the answer is less about rejecting what falls outside of national pride, and more about laying a solid an undeniable claim to national pride while also including elements that fall outside.

Less "no Mexican flags" and more "here's my American flag, I love America, and the America I love has Mexicans in it too."

Good point.

It's heartbreaking

Like I said in another post earlier, I think the Trumpists (and others like them) are setting up win-win conditions for themselves. They have a path to victory with no protests and they have a path to victory with protests. And I think they have different strategies for dealing with different types of protests to the point that whatever approach is taken, they have a set of responses lined up (mainly focused either on "it's so weak we can ignore it" or "here's how we paint it as offensive to Americans").

Indeed. For a while I thought Trump 2016 was the last hurrah of the reactionary forces. I am hoping Trump 2024 will end up to be, but they appear much more focused to make sure, like he promised, there won't be a need for elections in four years.

IMO the answer to the "they have Mexican flags" thing is not "yes and I love it" or "you're right, that's bad",  it's something like "it doesn't matter, what matters is [insert grumbler's point about ICE, or something else here]."

Interesting point and together with your national pride/flag point these are seemingly two key aspects of the success of Orban's (essentially in-house) rival, Peter Magyar.

I think Hungary has been pushed down the same road by the same forces (probably stemming from the 2008 crisis) as America has been, except that, due to its inherent instability those forces only needed a couple of years to unhinge it, whereas the much more robust American democracy has taken over a decade to succumb. So just like Hungarian (could have) benefited from examining Russia's slide to Putinism, Americans would do well to study both Russia and Hungary's recent history.

So on Magyar, first of all, one thing he has done that no progressive opposition has even attempted (to be clear, Magyar has shown no sign of being progressive apart from accepting civil and democratic norms Orban openly frowns upon) is to wrestle back control over national symbols. He uses them heavily with the same (to me often stomach-turning) pathos that the Orban of the early 2000s did. It also means using them in a positive, community-building manner that is increasingly in sharp contrast to the relentless fear-mongering and aggression of Orban. The rest of the opposition just long-time accepted that flag-waving is for the nationalists and surrendered those key identity-forming symbols to them.

The second is that, much like Starmer in the UK, Magyar absolutely refuses to be trapped into taking a stance on anything other than economic and other issues directly pertaining to people's standard of living. Be it the banning of Budapest Pride, or the recent (as of now, postponed) attempt to fully Putinify media laws, all he does is calling them  chew toys meant to be distract people, and keeps reminding the public to focus on the election in 10 months, essentially saying "protesting will not prevent them from doing what they want, but we can undo all this once we have won".

Now, to be fair, the only reason that's working is that this recipe manages to convert a lot of pro-Fidesz (or just nationalist) people dismayed by their constantly worsening economic situation AND that people on the centre and the left (such as they remain) are desperate enough to get rid of Orban no matter who they must vote for it to see it happen.

[Tamas]

The military dictatorship phase is starting. 

Let's hope that, similar to Poland, they are playing their hand too fast.

[crazy canuck]

The military dictatorship phase is starting. 

Let's hope that, similar to Poland, they are playing their hand too fast.