What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[viper37]

If they are here illegally, their very freedom does not include the freedom to reside here.

Ok, but why are they here illegally?

Under what circumstances did it happen?

Then how do you determine that they are in your country illegally?

An agent look at the persone, doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, deports them?
Doesn't speak perfect English, deports them?

Shouldn't anyone, even non US citizens, gets due process, a fair hearing?  State their arguments, hear what happened, determine guilt or innocence of the charges?  Sort of like what happened during Obama and Biden's time, when multiple illegals were being deported without cruelty?

[Jacob]

I don't remember fixating on it. But the idiots waving a foreign flag when they are incorrectly accused of being a foreign invasion force do hurt the chances of the cause they are fighting for. That remains true even if the flag itself is not the biggest issue facing Los Angeles, let alone the US.

The "they have Mexican flags" is a narrative advanced by the Trumpists to delegitimize the protests and justify a heavy handed response. Spending any time agreeing with the Trumpist narrative is playing into their hand, unless you're actually in a place to change the situation (i.e. you're deciding whether or not to bring a Mexican flag when you go protesting).

Your role - our role - in this is not decision making (unless you're going out and taking action). Our role is being the score board. We are (individually a miniscule) part of public opinion, and if we are swayed by the Trumpist arguments ("those idiots with their Mexican flags, what are they thinking") then we are scoring points for the Trumpists.

... not that I expect this point of view to find much purchase here, where we're much attached to the "I'm intellectually dispassionately analyzing this and I'm separate and detached from the situation; I'm not actually part of it."

[Admiral Yi]

Ok, but why are they here illegally?

Under what circumstances did it happen?

Then how do you determine that they are in your country illegally?

An agent look at the persone, doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, deports them?
Doesn't speak perfect English, deports them?

Shouldn't anyone, even non US citizens, gets due process, a fair hearing?  State their arguments, hear what happened, determine guilt or innocence of the charges?  Sort of like what happened during Obama and Biden's time, when multiple illegals were being deported without cruelty?

1. You tell me.
2. You tell me.
3. You tell me.
4. You tell me.
5. You tell me.
6. You tell me.
7. You tell me.
8. You tell me.

[Admiral Yi]

Federal courts?

Depends who has jurisdiction on the roguishness.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, but why are they here illegally?

Under what circumstances did it happen?

Then how do you determine that they are in your country illegally?

An agent look at the persone, doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, deports them?
Doesn't speak perfect English, deports them?

Shouldn't anyone, even non US citizens, gets due process, a fair hearing?  State their arguments, hear what happened, determine guilt or innocence of the charges?  Sort of like what happened during Obama and Biden's time, when multiple illegals were being deported without cruelty?

1. You tell me.
2. You tell me.
3. You tell me.
4. You tell me.
5. You tell me.
6. You tell me.
7. You tell me.
8. You tell me.

They came for the researchers, and I said, "you tell me"

They came for the university students with student visas, and I said, "you tell me"

They came for the people born in the US, but whose parents were not, and I said "you tell me".

They came for people without due process and I said, "you tell me".

Now they are coming for me, and I am not sure what to tell myself.

[Jacob]

I am curious about the people who criticize "the organizers" of the protestors, how much experience they have participating in protests themselves?

In my limited but nonetheless real (and rather dated) experience both as a protestor and occasional organizer, well organized and orchestrated protests are much less common than the alternative.

One of the challenges facing the American left - and American centrists, and non-Trumpist non-radical right-wingers for that matter - is the apparent lack of any real leaders. IMEX leadership is a prerequisite for organizing disciplined protests with coherent messaging.

[grumbler]

tbf, in this case, I don't think it was a planned protest.  And I'm very critical of protests in general.

People on Reddit talked about seeing ICE agents moving in downtown LA and the word spread from there.

People have been pissed off for a while on r/50501, calling for more anarchism and more radicalisation.  Moderates have long been drawn out as Trump's actions increased in intensity.

Imho, the whole movement is stupid, lacks organization, as with all leftist organization.  Which is why it will fail.  They can't plan, they can't coordinate, they rely on emotion and spontaneity rather than methodological planning.

There's no Luthren in the group to canalize their efforts and sacrifice everything...  And defo no Mon Mothma in the Congress.

I saw pictures featuring numerous people carrying professionally-printed signs. It's very unlikely that they just happened to all spontaneously decide to buy identical signs.

I agree that the protests are poorly conceived and executed. They aren't as stupid as the decision by ICE to focus their apprehension and deportation efforts on employed undocumenteds while claiming that they are getting rid of rapists and murderers. Employed undocumenteds would logically be the lowest priority, not the highest.  But ICE is going for the easiest victims to find, not the ones the public would like them to find.

[grumbler]

If they are here illegally, their very freedom does not include the freedom to reside here.

They are not here "illegally." R=They are here in violation of a regulation. Their offense is the equivalent of having a wrong-sized mailbox.  That's why they are subject to detention and deportation, not arrest and trial.

[crazy canuck]

tbf, in this case, I don't think it was a planned protest.  And I'm very critical of protests in general.

People on Reddit talked about seeing ICE agents moving in downtown LA and the word spread from there.

People have been pissed off for a while on r/50501, calling for more anarchism and more radicalisation.  Moderates have long been drawn out as Trump's actions increased in intensity.

Imho, the whole movement is stupid, lacks organization, as with all leftist organization.  Which is why it will fail.  They can't plan, they can't coordinate, they rely on emotion and spontaneity rather than methodological planning.

There's no Luthren in the group to canalize their efforts and sacrifice everything...  And defo no Mon Mothma in the Congress.

I saw pictures featuring numerous people carrying professionally-printed signs. It's very unlikely that they just happened to all spontaneously decide to buy identical signs.

I agree that the protests are poorly conceived and executed. They aren't as stupid as the decision by ICE to focus their apprehension and deportation efforts on employed undocumenteds while claiming that they are getting rid of rapists and murderers. Employed undocumenteds would logically be the lowest priority, not the highest.  But ICE is going for the easiest victims to find, not the ones the public would like them to find.

Do you think there is a planning group that meets ahead of time to conceive of a plan and how they will execute it?

Do you think that the fact that some people were carrying a similar or even the same sign means anything more than signs were being handed out to whoever would take one?

[Valmy]

There are carefully coordinated and politically managed protests going on. We are having another one coming up on June 14th where people just sort of gather around a pre-organized location with signs for a bit and then everybody goes home. Those have been going on for months and while I think they are good for morale, just to help the anti-Trump people know they are not alone and give them something to organize and do together, they aren't really making a huge difference or at least aren't creating big waves in reaction. But they are carefully managed and organized. And they are probably good politics.

But this protest was spontaneous and in reaction to some outrages committed by ICE. That is a totally different kind of protest. And it is exactly the sort of reaction Donald Trump wanted to create, he remembers the summer of 2020 and how much he wanted to send in the troops and he desperately wants to do it. These protestors played into his hands I guess.

But what can you do? strategically once he sent in all the troops I think the right move was for everybody to go home until the troops left...and then go back to protesting again. But that is easy for me to say, I don't have a friend or family member locked up by ICE for no more reason than showing up to my immigration appointment.

Donald Trump wants to promote this kind of spontaneous protest so he can crush it. He has been dreaming about doing this for five years. And the timing is good obviously. Distracts from the Epstein thing and the Musk thing and the tariff thing.

[Jacob]

Do you think that the fact that some people were carrying a similar or even the same sign means anything more than signs were being handed out to whoever would take one?

This is very common in my experience.

This is why you see (or used to see) so many "International Socialist" (and "Socialist Worker Party" in the UK) signs at protests. Not because they are organizing the protests or because there are many of them - but because they have a deliberate strategy of glomming on to any protest, printing up a bunch of signs, and handing them out to anyone who'll take them.

Their manifesto claims their goal is "to build a mass movement to... [something something]", but mostly they just try to put their logo on any vaguely left aligned protest and get photos taken.

[grumbler]

I am curious about the people who criticize "the organizers" of the protestors, how much experience they have participating in protests themselves?

In my limited but nonetheless real (and rather dated) experience both as a protestor and occasional organizer, well organized and orchestrated protests are much less common than the alternative.

One of the challenges facing the American left - and American centrists, and non-Trumpist non-radical right-wingers for that matter - is the apparent lack of any real leaders. IMEX leadership is a prerequisite for organizing disciplined protests with coherent messaging.

I am curious as to why you seem to be saying that there is no in-between between no known attempt to present a coherent message and fully disciplined rallies with coherent messaging.

I think that we can al agree that using the Mexican flag as the symbol of a protest that has nothing to do with Mexico itself is at best incoherent and at worst self-defeating. If any of the organizers (SEIU seems to have doe at least part of the organizing) have tried to refocus protests on ICE actions rather than immigrant grievances, I haven't seen it yet.

The problem with ICE is ICE, and Mexico can't do a thing about ICE.

[grumbler]

Do you think there is a planning group that meets ahead of time to conceive of a plan and how they will execute it?

Do you think that the fact that some people were carrying a similar or even the same sign means anything more than signs were being handed out to whoever would take one?

The signs did not appear spontaneously.  Obviously, someone had to meet ahead of time in order for them to have been printed ahead of time.  Someone had to bring them to the rally in order for them to be handed out.

I'm not sure why you find this so difficult to grasp.

[The Minsky Moment]

If they are here illegally, their very freedom does not include the freedom to reside here.

That is tautologically true, but not relevant to the point.  Everyone, whether a US citizen born in another country, a lawful permanent resident who has citizenship in another country, or even an individual in the United States unlawfully, has rights to due process of law, rights to speak freely, and rights to be protected from unlawful state violence. I don't know the breakdown of everyone carrying a Mexican flag in L.A.  and what their precise immigration status happnes to be.  I do know this administration has repeatedly targeted Hispanics for deportation regardless of their legal status and claims.

[viper37]

Ok, but why are they here illegally?

Under what circumstances did it happen?

Then how do you determine that they are in your country illegally?

An agent look at the persone, doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, deports them?
Doesn't speak perfect English, deports them?

Shouldn't anyone, even non US citizens, gets due process, a fair hearing?  State their arguments, hear what happened, determine guilt or innocence of the charges?  Sort of like what happened during Obama and Biden's time, when multiple illegals were being deported without cruelty?

1. You tell me.
2. You tell me.
3. You tell me.
4. You tell me.
5. You tell me.
6. You tell me.
7. You tell me.
8. You tell me.

It's simple.

If someone, anyone is suspected of anything illegal, in this case, being in the country illegally, they are to be arrested and brought before a tribunal.  I am assuming the US has immigration tribunal, like Canada?

So, you arrest these suspects, you bring them to an immigration tribunal, they have a right to a lawyer, and they make their case.

The judge will rule on the merits of their case, declare them guilty or not guilty.  If not guilty, they stay.  If guilty, they may be deported, or another sanction can be chosen by the judge, I assume, depending on the gravity of the offense.

If deported, the guilty party is sent back to his home country, or can appeal the sanction on the grounds that there is a real danger for his/her life there should he/she be deported.  I'm fuzzy on the details if that happens during the hearing or when the verdict falls.  A lawyer would better explain that part.


Whatever the case, I do not think someone who came legally to the country (Canada, USA, any country, really), and then when the government changes its mind and decides they are no longer welcome, is a criminal alien that should be deported without due process, but your previous post would seem to indicate that.  I may have misunderstood though.

However, should that be the case, I require the immediate arrest of Kristi Noem.  I want her extradited to Canada where she will be arrested and charged for illegally entering the country through the Stanstead public library.  She will go on trial and witnesses will testify against her, video evidence will be provided.  

Unfortunately, we do not determine the verdict in advance anymore, traditions are lost in this country... 

But she will have a fair hearing, and her ambassy can provide a observer, should she wish it.