What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[grumbler]

There are organizers who are in charge of sending out such messages?  How wonderfully naive.

There are no organizers who can send out such messages?  How wonderfully naïve.

[viper37]

There are organizers who are in charge of sending out such messages?  How wonderfully naive.

There are no organizers who can send out such messages?  How wonderfully naïve.

tbf, in this case, I don't think it was a planned protest.  And I'm very critical of protests in general.

People on Reddit talked about seeing ICE agents moving in downtown LA and the word spread from there.

People have been pissed off for a while on r/50501, calling for more anarchism and more radicalisation.  Moderates have long been drawn out as Trump's actions increased in intensity.

Imho, the whole movement is stupid, lacks organization, as with all leftist organization.  Which is why it will fail.  They can't plan, they can't coordinate, they rely on emotion and spontaneity rather than methodological planning.

There's no Luthren in the group to canalize their efforts and sacrifice everything...  And defo no Mon Mothma in the Congress.

[The Minsky Moment]

Italian-Americans wave Italian flags and that's just healthy ethnic pride
Irish-Americans wave Irish flags and that's just healthy ethnic pride.
Maga-Americans wave confederate flags and swastikas and that's just some very fine people a little misguided in showing their healthy ethnic pride.

Mexican-Americans waving Mexican flags at a time when their national background is being used to threaten their very freedom? How dare those SOBs insult America like that. 

[Jacob]

I wish the American people good luck.

I believe that the current American regime is actively looking to provoke excuses to respond with a heavy hand - both against groups of people the represent "the other" and against whatever organizations hold power (governmental, civic, organizational) that they have not yet subjugated.

Responding with overwhelming force against "transgressors" is the play because:

• It makes them feel good on an emotional level.
• It cows their opponents.
• It excuses further excess and power grabs due to "the state of emergency".
• Rallies people to their side who are looking for "strong men in turbulent times" and / or who "hate those who are being abused" because "they deserve it".

I believe the administration's actions are actively seeking to provoke responses as a win-win strategy. If there is a weak or no response, they have moved the bar for what is acceptable and can escalate further since pushback is weak. If there is a response, they can lean into the "emergency" narrative to justify escalating further, which they do by building up a narrative about how the protestors are "traitors" or whatever else.

IMO getting fussed about Mexican flags is useless. If there were no Mexican flags it would be something else, and it would be equally "maybe they have a bit of a point, the protestors should've done something different" as the Mexican flags (in the absence of something more obvious, like widespread looting or whatever).

Bottom line for me is that if there is any response at all against Trump, Trump and his supporters will get their pictures of their law enforcement in large numbers fighting "disorder" and a narrative about how the protestors are "a threat to America".

Like I said, I wish good luck to the people of America. You're navigating turbulent waters.

[viper37]

There are organizers who are in charge of sending out such messages?  How wonderfully naive.

There are no organizers who can send out such messages?  How wonderfully naïve.

Anyway, back on the flag topic, there are all kind of flags on this particular protest:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1l6zmt0/la_protests/


I think people have reached their limits with ICE.

You'll have to enlighten me about the demographics of this part of LA.  I guess there is an higher concentration of Hispanics than in other parts of the US and the tension boiled until the larger ICE raid and Trump's decision to send the National Guard, and now threats of arresting Newsom?

[Tamas]

It's to be expected in any protest there'll be a group of idiots.
Fiaxting on these people rather than what the protest is actually about however....

I don't remember fixating on it. But the idiots waving a foreign flag when they are incorrectly accused of being a foreign invasion force do hurt the chances of the cause they are fighting for. That remains true even if the flag itself is not the biggest issue facing Los Angeles, let alone the US.

[viper37]

IMO getting fussed about Mexican flags is useless. If there were no Mexican flags it would be something else, and it would be equally "maybe they have a bit of a point, the protestors should've done something different" as the Mexican flags (in the absence of something more obvious, like widespread looting or whatever).

Could be worst.  There could be Canadian flags out there...   


I agree with you and Minsky, there's no issue with the flag.  Hispanics are the ones mostly being targeted by ICE, be they legal or not, no matter the reason. Even law enforcement agents are "mistakenly" arrested by ICE.


People who are trying to comply with their visa obligations are being arrested.  People who overstayed their visa because of government delays are sent to El Salvador.

I'd wave my flag too if French speakers were targeted like that.

[The Brain]

Do States have any constitutional mechanism for handling a rogue federal government?

[Tamas]

Italian-Americans wave Italian flags and that's just healthy ethnic pride
Irish-Americans wave Irish flags and that's just healthy ethnic pride.
Maga-Americans wave confederate flags and swastikas and that's just some very fine people a little misguided in showing their healthy ethnic pride.

Mexican-Americans waving Mexican flags at a time when their national background is being used to threaten their very freedom? How dare those SOBs insult America like that. 

Without researching it I am 100% sure Irish and Italian immigrants were attacked for waving the flags of their homelands around before the definition of "white American" extended onto them. It's how racism works.

Still a PR win for the fascists.


I do hope Trump and the GOP are in the process of losing their Latino votes. Then again there is the issue of transgenders in toilets, that's what they have to balance against being beaten up by the National Guard for having the wrong skin colour.

[Admiral Yi]

Mexican-Americans waving Mexican flags at a time when their national background is being used to threaten their very freedom? How dare those SOBs insult America like that. 

If they are here illegally, their very freedom does not include the freedom to reside here.

IMO the only coherent argument against the deportations is the moral one of compassion, empathy, sympathy.  And I don't think lawlessness is an effective means of increasing the compassion of the American electorate or political class for illegals.  That's why the flag matters.  It's not a symbol of shared values and shared sacrifice, it's a symbol of defiance.

You make a narrower justice argument based on the racial composition of the deportees.  The problem with that argument is that there are maybe three people in America who give a shit.  No one else has said "I'd be OK with the deportations only if the same percentage of Irish are deported."

[viper37]

It's to be expected in any protest there'll be a group of idiots.
Fiaxting on these people rather than what the protest is actually about however....

I don't remember fixating on it. But the idiots waving a foreign flag when they are incorrectly accused of being a foreign invasion force do hurt the chances of the cause they are fighting for. That remains true even if the flag itself is not the biggest issue facing Los Angeles, let alone the US.

Meh.

You know, the courts already debunked that foreign invasion theory.

The administration will use any pretext to crackdown on protesters.  Trump wanted to use the army on the George Floyd protesters.

Whatever happens, Faux News will spin it as a rebellion.

This is from 2017, from the NRA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bBQq9GdeKI

[Tamas]

Do States have any constitutional mechanism for handling a rogue federal government?

[Admiral Yi]

Do States have any constitutional mechanism for handling a rogue federal government?

The courts.

[The Brain]

Do States have any constitutional mechanism for handling a rogue federal government?

The courts.

Federal courts?

[crazy canuck]

There are organizers who are in charge of sending out such messages?  How wonderfully naive.

There are no organizers who can send out such messages?  How wonderfully naïve.

Really? I have questions and comments:

1) In my experience dealing with issues surrounding protests and protest groups, they are ad hoc groups of people who are not organized in any sense of that word.  They are people who feel strongly about what his happening and have a variety of views about what is happening, how it should be addressed, and importantly, how they will express their concerns about what is happening.

2) To the extent there are people who identify themselves as an organizer, that person or group of people never have authority over the people who come to protest; and

3) The proposition you are asserting would require this mythical organizer to exercise control in a way that limits freedom of expression.  Something that would be antithetical to the very organizer you say exists.  Please explain why you think it would be appropriate to do so, and what effect it would have on the protestors.

4) As a separate point, consider how people like you and Yi support the actions of a fascist government by giving a veneer of legitimacy.