Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

On the trans debate, watch this video up to minute 3:30. It was amazing watching the Tory ex-minister have a reboot in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdU6tGCwWIE

Assuming I was single - I wouldn't go out with an obese woman. Does this mean I don't think they're women?

not a good comparison frankly. I'm sure you're aware why.

Gotta love a dismissal that avoids any attempt at giving a reason.
Why isn't the comparison valid?

[mongers]

Yet again Raz is giving us the typical twitter talking points...

Would you date a trans woman is a pretty shit measure.
I wouldn't date a trans woman... As my girlfriend would have an issue with that.
Assuming I was single - I wouldn't go out with an obese woman. Does this mean I don't think they're women?
Generally people don't know who they'd go out with till they meet them, and again, not being into someone doesn't mean you don't respect their rights.

I'm gonna have to agree with this.

[garbon]

The only argument I can see for i wish we had the tories is at least then crap would have their label and there'd still be the hope of an untainted labour someday soon.

I think it was lost that I don't actually want the Conservatives in power but from my vantage point the lines between the Conservatives and what Labour has been doing having been pretty blurred.

[HVC]

I cannot wait until Starmer falls. If Labour is going to position itself as Tory/Reform-lite, we might as well go back to the tories once they come out of the wilderness.

What a colossal disappointment.

Hey. Been missing you around here.

Indeed

[Razgovory]

The only argument I can see for i wish we had the tories is at least then crap would have their label and there'd still be the hope of an untainted labour someday soon.

On the trans issue I think Starmer's about-face is quite understandable. It seems like following the ruling every organisation moved quickly to adopt it and what it met from the public was a deafening silence (I know there was like one protest in London but considering the size of the city and the culture-war focus of the issue, it was miniscule).

This to me seemed to prove one of DorseyGuller's points in regards to the Left - most people don't actually agree with "trans women are women" they just decide to stay silent because they don't need the aggro if they voice their opinion.


I am seeing this morning the Guardian is quoting MPs comparing Starmer to that infamous racist whatshisname for suggesting 1m a year immigration might need a bit of control established.

Transwoman are women is a slogan that few people took literally.  Something like 2% of straight people, 12% of gay men, 28% of lesbians and 51% of bisexual, Trans and non binary people would be interested in dating a trans person.  So a person who claims that Transwomen are women and a person who is transphobic have basically the same interest in actually dating a transwoman.  A bit surprising that bisexual, trans and nonbinary people aren't higher than just over slightly over half.

Yet again Raz is giving us the typical twitter talking points...

Would you date a trans woman is a pretty shit measure.
I wouldn't date a trans woman... As my girlfriend would have an issue with that.
Assuming I was single - I wouldn't go out with an obese woman. Does this mean I don't think they're women?
Generally people don't know who they'd go out with till they meet them, and again, not being into someone doesn't mean you don't respect their rights.

It is a good indicator that people do not believe that women and transwomen are interchangeable.  You can still still respect their rights of course, but at a fundamental level most people do not seem them as exactly the same.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

[garbon]

It is a good indicator that people do not believe that women and transwomen are interchangeable.  You can still still respect their rights of course, but at a fundamental level most people do not seem them as exactly the same.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

But not all cisgendered women are interchangeable either. And the statement trans women are women doesn't mean that trans women are exactly the same as cisgender women.

[Tamas]

It is a good indicator that people do not believe that women and transwomen are interchangeable.  You can still still respect their rights of course, but at a fundamental level most people do not seem them as exactly the same.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

But not all cisgendered women are interchangeable either. And the statement trans women are women doesn't mean that trans women are exactly the same as cisgender women.

What does it mean then? Because the nuance sure seem to get lost from conception to communication.

[garbon]

It is a good indicator that people do not believe that women and transwomen are interchangeable.  You can still still respect their rights of course, but at a fundamental level most people do not seem them as exactly the same.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

But not all cisgendered women are interchangeable either. And the statement trans women are women doesn't mean that trans women are exactly the same as cisgender women.

What does it mean then? Because the nuance sure seem to get lost from conception to communication.

We should stop treating them like boogeymen. Like when we first laughed at Republicans in North Carolina, we should laugh at those who cry for an urgent need for bathroom monitors. We should stop misgendering them.

[Josquius]

.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

Garbon already covered the rest.
But this bit... you're talking about stated belief here right? I presume you've a poll or something?

I'd guess there are an awful lot of guys who outwardly do the socially expected thing and go "I would never touch a tr%&y with a stick. It's gross!" but if it came down to it... Might very well behave very differently.
I've heard tell it's a common problem with trans women that many guys are very keen to sleep with them but don't want anyone to know they're trans or even that they exist.

If you truly want to look at behaviour rather than stated preference I expect it'd be the relationships of trans people that you should be looking at.
How many are with what combo of cis/trans,  orientation, gender, etc...
But again "would I do them" is a crap measure of someone's validity as a person.

[Tamas]

It is a good indicator that people do not believe that women and transwomen are interchangeable.  You can still still respect their rights of course, but at a fundamental level most people do not seem them as exactly the same.  This massive gap between stated belief and behavior is an indicator of false preference.

But not all cisgendered women are interchangeable either. And the statement trans women are women doesn't mean that trans women are exactly the same as cisgender women.

What does it mean then? Because the nuance sure seem to get lost from conception to communication.

We should stop treating them like boogeymen. Like when we first laughed at Republicans in North Carolina, we should laugh at those who cry for an urgent need for bathroom monitors. We should stop misgendering them.

I agree on all points but I don't think that's how "trans women are women" comes through to the general public. It certainly doesn't come off as that message to me. I think the way that comes off is thaf people are expected to ignore obvious differences between biological sexes. It gives the feeling of asking more than tolerance. To make use of Josqs example, it feels like asking people to call fat women skinny if they have decided they are skinny.

Trans women should seek tolerance and acceptance not as women but as trans women.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

On the trans debate, watch this video up to minute 3:30. It was amazing watching the Tory ex-minister have a reboot in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdU6tGCwWIE

Assuming I was single - I wouldn't go out with an obese woman. Does this mean I don't think they're women?

not a good comparison frankly. I'm sure you're aware why.

Gotta love a dismissal that avoids any attempt at giving a reason.
Why isn't the comparison valid?

because an obese woman is a women while a trans woman is, at the end of the day, a man that's been medically altered to look like a woman. That's why there was a transition. A word with a meaning.
They're not the same, cause if they were there wouldn't be a transition required.

you'd think that the difference is clear enough.

[Valmy]

I didn't think medical intervention was required to be trans 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Trans women should seek tolerance and acceptance not as women but as trans women.

Indeed.

[Valmy]

Trans women should seek tolerance and acceptance not as women but as trans women.

Indeed.

I guess I do not understand the distinction.

[garbon]

I agree on all points but I don't think that's how "trans women are women" comes through to the general public. It certainly doesn't come off as that message to me. I think the way that comes off is thaf people are expected to ignore obvious differences between biological sexes. It gives the feeling of asking more than tolerance. To make use of Josqs example, it feels like asking people to call fat women skinny if they have decided they are skinny.

Okay but that is a misunderstanding. I'm not sure why trans women should give up on being called women because people have misunderstood their request for tolerance. After all, gender recognition certificates have not been invalidated by this most recent court case. So we actually have two parallel streams that already exist with GRCs still valid while at the same time trans women are not women under the equality act as they are not biologically the same.

Trans women should seek tolerance and acceptance not as women but as trans women.

Why? Because it is difficult for the public to understand at this point in time?