Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

I bolded the part that had nothing to do with aid, for your benefit.  Please go back and re-read it.

It's a little light on details...  For all we know the other avenues of funding Hamas were also disguised as aid.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibnesque hellhole are close to certain

Early reports out of Syria seem to be positive - and certainly much better than under Assad.

early reports ignore the fact that the rulers of Syria are islamofascist fanatics.

And you are ignoring the fact that at least in these early days the Syrians are not acting like Fascists.

Point is they are. You just don't want to see. Idlib is the benchmark

[crazy canuck]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

I bolded the part that had nothing to do with aid, for your benefit.  Please go back and re-read it.

It's a little light on details...  For all we know the other avenues of funding Hamas were also disguised as aid.

Why would someone make the point that there are separate avenues used apart from aid, if they meant aid?

And the details are in the rest of the article I linked for you.  If you want to believe there was only aid money being sent, despite the fact the Israeli intelligence thought otherwise, then there is not much more I can do for you.

[Razgovory]

Fascism seems to be intrinsic to identify.  If you ban the teacher of evolution in the US, it is an example of Christian nationalist fascism.  In Syria, it's not even remotely fascism.

[Razgovory]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

I bolded the part that had nothing to do with aid, for your benefit.  Please go back and re-read it.

It's a little light on details...  For all we know the other avenues of funding Hamas were also disguised as aid.

Why would someone make the point that there are separate avenues used apart from aid, if they meant aid?

And the details are in the rest of the article I linked for you.  If you want to believe there was only aid money being sent, despite the fact the Israeli intelligence thought otherwise, then there is not much more I can do for you.

Different forms of aid would be different avenues.  I don't think there was any occasions where the Qatari sent money explicitly for raping women or allocated funds for kidnapping children.  All the money going to Hamas is going to be disguised as civilian aid.  We also both know that any aid that goes to Gaza will go through Hamas and would be used to fund the rebuilding of it's military.  The question is, what to do about it.  Should the Israelis have a veto on what money goes through? 

[crazy canuck]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

I bolded the part that had nothing to do with aid, for your benefit.  Please go back and re-read it.

It's a little light on details...  For all we know the other avenues of funding Hamas were also disguised as aid.

Why would someone make the point that there are separate avenues used apart from aid, if they meant aid?

And the details are in the rest of the article I linked for you.  If you want to believe there was only aid money being sent, despite the fact the Israeli intelligence thought otherwise, then there is not much more I can do for you.

Different forms of aid would be different avenues.  I don't think there was any occasions where the Qatari sent money explicitly for raping women or allocated funds for kidnapping children.  All the money going to Hamas is going to be disguised as civilian aid.  We also both know that any aid that goes to Gaza will go through Hamas and would be used to fund the rebuilding of it's military.  The question is, what to do about it.  Should the Israelis have a veto on what money goes through?

The article specifically mentions that Qatar aid went directly to the military wing of Hamas.  The Israelis knew it, but turned a blind eye to it on the theory that it was better to destabilize the Palestinian Authority than reduce the harm Hamas might one day do.

[Razgovory]

Yet it was not earmarked for Hamas.  The Qataris said they were giving it to pay civil service and the like.  They were lying of course, and the Israeli had a reasonable suspicion that the Qataris were lying.  They would have a reasonable suspicion that any aid going to Gaza would go directly to Hamas or that Hamas would get it.  From your quote

But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations.

That can be applied to any aid that goes into Gaza.  The question, which you have so far avoided, is how to prevent that from happening.

[crazy canuck]

Yet it was not earmarked for Hamas.

I prefer to rely on Israeli intelligence who says otherwise.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Yet it was not earmarked for Hamas.  The Qataris said they were giving it to pay civil service and the like.  They were lying of course, and the Israeli had a reasonable suspicion that the Qataris were lying.  They would have a reasonable suspicion that any aid going to Gaza would go directly to Hamas or that Hamas would get it.  From your quote

But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations.

Why are you so convinced that

The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running. But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations.

and

Separately, Israeli intelligence has long assessed that Qatar uses other channels to secretly fund Hamas' military wing, an accusation that Qatar's government has denied.

both refer to aid streams?  I think it's clear from the quoted passage that Hamas was both skimming aid money sent by the Qataris and getting secret, direct payments to fund their military wing.  Not secretly diverting aid payments the Qataris lied about the purpose of, but payments the Qataris denied existed entirely.

That can be applied to any aid that goes into Gaza.  The question, which you have so far avoided, is how to prevent that from happening.

That can be applied to any aid which goes into Gaza so long as Hamas have de facto control of Gaza.  Sure, they can probably find ways to skim small amounts even if they're driven underground again, but the only reason they were able to divert so much aid to rearming is because they were allowed to control Gaza for 16 years and Israel was content to let them sit there.  Oh, and the Qataris dumping fat stacks on them covertly.

[Barrister]

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibnesque hellhole are close to certain

Early reports out of Syria seem to be positive - and certainly much better than under Assad.

early reports ignore the fact that the rulers of Syria are islamofascist fanatics.

Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

You're not going to get some moderate secular liberal out of winning a brutal civil war (besides - Assad has the secularist in that war).  And interim leader al-Sharaa has a history with al Quaeda, but broke ties with the group years ago and seems focused more on much more basic governance issues rather than violent jihad.

As I said - very early days.  We'll see how things shake out.  But the early signs are much more promising than I would have thought.

[Razgovory]

Yet it was not earmarked for Hamas.

I prefer to rely on Israeli intelligence who says otherwise.

Dude, the official purpose was for civil 

Yet it was not earmarked for Hamas.  The Qataris said they were giving it to pay civil service and the like.  They were lying of course, and the Israeli had a reasonable suspicion that the Qataris were lying.  They would have a reasonable suspicion that any aid going to Gaza would go directly to Hamas or that Hamas would get it.  From your quote

But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations.

Why are you so convinced that

I am not absolutely convinced that all Qatari support for Hamas was through aid, but it is a reasonable assumption.  Qatar gave Hamas money but said that it was for just for paying wages and construction.  The Israeli didn't believe them, but allowed the money in anyway.  That means it was still aid, aid that was for civil purposes, but ended up going to Hamas.  The Israelis have fought several wars against Hamas in Gaza, so they are hardly "letting" Hamas stay in Gaza.  We just saw the end of a 14 month war that failed to dislodge Hamas.  Presumably when Hamas starts attacking Israel again it will be Israel's fault because they allowed Hamas to stay in Gaza and allowed money to go to Hamas disguised as aid.

There is no way for Israel to be right.  If they fight Hamas it is genocide, if they don't fight Hamas and allow aid in they are propping up Hamas so they have an excuse to commit genocide in the future.

[viper37]

Gaza ceasefire to be cancelled by Saturday unless Hamas releases all hostages.

Raz and Otto are dancing with joy.

No one will be left alive, Gaza Trump tower to be soon announced as a joint Likud-Republican venture.

[Razgovory]

Seems Hamas is playing bait and switch.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-says-body-returned-by-hamas-doesn-t-belong-to-hostage-kidnapped-with-her-sons/ar-AA1zqbY1?ocid=winp2fptaskbar&cvid=c0eb9336fe92455a995712e2ecad5330&ei=10

TEL AVIV—Israel said that one of the bodies that Hamas turned over Thursday wasn't that of a mother who was kidnapped with her two young sons and who Hamas had said it would release this week with other dead hostages.

The Israeli military said that it had informed the Bibas family that the bodies of the boys, Ariel and Kfir, had been identified. But it said another body Israel received didn't belong to their mother, Shiri Bibas, and didn't match any other hostage.

"This is a violation of utmost severity," the military said. It said that Hamas was required under a cease-fire deal to return four dead hostages. "We demand that Hamas return Shiri home along with all our hostages," the military said.

A Hamas spokesman didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Earlier, Hamas had displayed coffins that it said held the bodies of four Israeli hostages before a crowd of militants while handing them over to Israel, in a spectacle that included taunts and anti-Israel slogans.

The coffins that Hamas released each had a photo of a hostage on it, as well as a picture of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over which was written "The Killer."


The coffins were placed on a stage before cheering spectators and cameras that broadcast the scenes on Arab television channels. The International Committee of the Red Cross, who received the remains and transferred them to Israeli custody, initially tried to shield them from view with large white screens.


Israeli broadcasters didn't air the images.

Amid the crowds were some Palestinians recently released by Israel in the cease-fire deal who, according to the terms of the agreement, were supposed to be exiled from Gaza. Those spotted in the crowds included Mohammed Abu Warda, who was sentenced for planning a 1996 bus bombing that killed more than 40 Israelis.

For the first time since the start of a fragile cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, under which the militant group agreed to free hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners, those returning to Israel are dead.

Israelis clung to hope for more than a year that Shiri Bibas and her sons, who were 4 years old and 9 months old when they were kidnapped, might somehow still be alive. The family's capture became symbolic of the horrors of the Hamas-led attack on Oct. 7, 2023, which sparked the war in Gaza.

Behind a stage set up in the southern Gazan city of Khan Younis, a banner showed Netanyahu likened to a vampire, with blood dripping down his chin, blaming him for their deaths. In the early days of the war, Hamas said Shiri Bibas and the children had been killed by an Israeli airstrike. Israel never officially confirmed their deaths or addressed the possibility that they were killed by an airstrike.

In its statement, the Israeli military said that an assessment had determined that Ariel and Kfir Bibas were killed in captivity in November 2023.

The family of Oded Lifshitz, who was 83 years old at the time of his capture, confirmed that his body was identified among those returned. Lifshitz died in captivity more than a year ago, according to the director of Israel's National Center of Forensic Medicine.

He and his wife, Yocheved, both peace activists, were taken from the Nir Oz kibbutz near the Gaza border. His wife, who was 85 when taken, was released alive by Hamas in October 2023 after 17 days in captivity, along with three other women. Her family says she was released because she was sick and the militants were worried the illness would spread to others in the tunnels.

"It isn't over today," Izhar Lifshitz, Oded Lifshitz's son, told Army Radio on Thursday morning shortly before the handover. "It will be over when everyone is back."

In exchange for the bodies, Israel will release a group of Palestinian prisoners. Hamas has agreed to free another six living hostages on Saturday as the first phase of the cease-fire nears its end.

An Israeli military rabbi held a short ceremony after the bodies were handed over, reading the Kaddish, a traditional Jewish prayer said over the dead, and chapters from Psalms, per requests from the families. Troops fired ceremonial shots into the air, and a convoy took the bodies across the border.

The makeshift Hostage Square in Tel Aviv, where people have gathered each week to watch captives being freed, was filled with Israeli flags on Thursday that fluttered in the early-morning rain. Once the weather cleared, a small crowd of families, friends and supporters cried and embraced each other in silence as they watched a tribute video to the hostages on a large screen set up in the center of the square.

"I'm happy to be able to put up a flag and show families here that we are with them, and they are not being forgotten," said Gili Marcovich, a 23-year-old student who volunteered at the gathering on Thursday.

Adi Koren, 18, came with a friend whose uncle, an Israeli soldier, died in the conflict. "I just feel sadness and frustration," Koren said.

The return of the Bibas family is especially sensitive for Israelis, many of whom have been reluctant to accept that they had died. Their fate became hard to deny in recent weeks, when Shiri Bibas wasn't freed along with other women in the early stages of the deal.

The Bibas family lived just over a mile away from the Gaza border in the Nir Oz kibbutz. It was one of the hardest-hit communities during the attack, with locals saying a quarter of its 400 residents were killed or kidnapped by Hamas militants who overtook the town on Oct. 7. Residents said help didn't arrive until the afternoon.

Shiri Bibas, then 33 years old, was hiding with her husband, Yarden, and their sons in a shelter in their home as the militants arrived. As they closed in, Yarden left the shelter to try to protect them, but he himself was captured. Yarden, who was held separately from his family, was released in an earlier hostage exchange under the cease-fire.

The "heart of the entire nation is torn. My own heart is torn. So is yours. And all of the world's heart should be torn, because this demonstrates who we are dealing with, what we are dealing with such monsters," Netanyahu said late Wednesday.

"We are grieving, we are in pain, but we are also determined to ensure that such a thing never happens again," he said.

[Valmy]

I was wondering what was wrong, I hadn't heard bad news from Gaza in awhile.

[Savonarola]

It's hard to top a headline like this one:

Palestinian Terrorists Parade Dead Babies' Bodies Through Streets As Celebratory Music Plays