Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

So, one of the things I heard quite a bit for the last year and half is that Israel supported Hamas by allowing funds to go into Gaza for construction.  Does anyone have an ideas how to keep reconstruction funds from getting to Hamas?  And if not, does that mean that Israel should allow no funds for reconstruction to go to Gaza?

I thought the idea was that the Israelis helped Hamas by opposing Fatah's attempts to oust Hamas and retake control in Gaza, thus keeping the Palestinians divided. So maybe the idea is something like ensuring all support for the Palestinians and Gaza goes to non-Hamas Palstinian groups in order to starve them of resources and limit their legitimacy and control.

The most common one I've seen is that Israel helped Hamas by allowing funding from Qatar.  It's been brought up in this thread a few times.  Since allowing funding in is bad, what do we do?

You misunderstood the point being made if you thought it was that funding aid relief was bad.

No, the point was that Israel brought it on themselves.  The Mossad created Hamas, Netanyahu allowed Hamas to attack, etc.  Since these arguments tended to turn on allowing funding into Gaza that Hamas could siphon off, that is, all funding going to Gaza, any funding going to Gaza will be pointed too in the future as Israel funding Hamas.

Well, yes Israel did have a big part to play in the ability of Hamas to take control of Gaza. But the arguments for how Israel did that do not tend to turn on allowing aid funding into Gaza.

It is a more nuanced point than that. Israel tried to weaken the Palestinian Authority by strengthening Hamas. It did so by, for example, providing more work permits for Palestinians in areas controlled by Hamas rather than the Palestinian Authority.  Israel also turned a blind eye to direct funding for Hamas.

Israel played a dangerous game of playing off one enemy against another. 

[crazy canuck]

The Palestinians are divided, they are weaker than ever, and the chances of a two state solution with a Palestinian state is all but dead. From where I sit, Palestine seems on the path to oblivion and Israel will win.

Hamas will get a few licks in, but it seems to be working...if the plan is for Israel to take over the whole area.

I am not sure all hope is lost. There is some hope Syria succeeds - and if it does, it could provide a model for the rest of the region.  Not I just said, some hope.

[Razgovory]

Well, yes Israel did have a big part to play in the ability of Hamas to take control of Gaza. But the arguments for how Israel did that do not tend to turn on allowing aid funding into Gaza.

It is a more nuanced point than that. Israel tried to weaken the Palestinian Authority by strengthening Hamas. It did so by, for example, providing more work permits for Palestinians in areas controlled by Hamas rather than the Palestinian Authority.  Israel also turned a blind eye to direct funding for Hamas.

Israel played a dangerous game of playing off one enemy against another. 

Yes, the "direct funding for Hamas" was money that was earmarked for construction.  The point was that Israel played a dangerous game and thus brought it on themselves.

[Valmy]

Yes, the "direct funding for Hamas" was money that was earmarked for construction.  The point was that Israel played a dangerous game and thus brought it on themselves.

My point is that they are playing a winning game that none-the-less had some risks. Your point seems to be that you really really really want to use the phrase "bring it on themselves".

Go ahead, but I do not really understand what you are trying to say.

[viper37]

Only if by going "hands off" means the United States just stops existing.

Give Elon a few more months.  He hasn't moved to the Pentagon and Nasa yet.

[Razgovory]

Yes, the "direct funding for Hamas" was money that was earmarked for construction.  The point was that Israel played a dangerous game and thus brought it on themselves.

My point is that they are playing a winning game that none-the-less had some risks. Your point seems to be that you really really really want to use the phrase "bring it on themselves".

Go ahead, but I do not really understand what you are trying to say.

What I'm trying to say is that the narrative I have heard many, many times is that Israel empowered Hamas (or even created it) through allowing aid into Gaza (Norgy and Viper made this argument)  Since we don't want to do that again, how do we rebuild Gaza?

[crazy canuck]

Yes, the "direct funding for Hamas" was money that was earmarked for construction.  The point was that Israel played a dangerous game and thus brought it on themselves.

My point is that they are playing a winning game that none-the-less had some risks. Your point seems to be that you really really really want to use the phrase "bring it on themselves".

Go ahead, but I do not really understand what you are trying to say.

What I'm trying to say is that the narrative I have heard many, many times is that Israel empowered Hamas (or even created it) through allowing aid into Gaza (Norgy and Viper made this argument)  Since we don't want to do that again, how do we rebuild Gaza?

Where you go wrong is tying the payments to Hamas as aid payments.  You missed the point I made that Israel had turned a blind eye to direct payments to Hamas.

Overtime, yes Hamas also took a cut of aid payments, but that was because they had won control of Gaza - with the help of the Israelis.

[Razgovory]

Oh?  What were the Direct payments that Hamas was getting?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The Palestinians are divided, they are weaker than ever, and the chances of a two state solution with a Palestinian state is all but dead. From where I sit, Palestine seems on the path to oblivion and Israel will win.

Hamas will get a few licks in, but it seems to be working...if the plan is for Israel to take over the whole area.

I am not sure all hope is lost. There is some hope Syria succeeds - and if it does, it could provide a model for the rest of the region.  Not I just said, some hope.

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibanesque hellhole are close to certain

[Barrister]

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibnesque hellhole are close to certain

Early reports out of Syria seem to be positive - and certainly much better than under Assad.

[crazy canuck]

Oh?  What were the Direct payments that Hamas was getting?

You already mentioned it, the payments from Qatar to Hamas.

The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running. But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations. Separately, Israeli intelligence has long assessed that Qatar uses other channels to secretly fund Hamas' military wing, an accusation that Qatar's government has denied.

The Israelis denied they knew about these payments, but the article goes into detail about how the plausible deniability isn't all that plausible.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[Razgovory]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

[crazy canuck]

Your quote undermines your argument.  The money was aid, but it really went to Hamas.  Obviously, the Israelis shouldn't have let the aid in.  But that leads us to a pickle, Gaza needs money to rebuild but the money will go to Hamas.

I bolded the part that had nothing to do with aid, for your benefit.  Please go back and re-read it.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibnesque hellhole are close to certain

Early reports out of Syria seem to be positive - and certainly much better than under Assad.

early reports ignore the fact that the rulers of Syria are islamofascist fanatics.

[crazy canuck]

The chances of Syria succeeding are very low. The chances of Syria becoming a talibnesque hellhole are close to certain

Early reports out of Syria seem to be positive - and certainly much better than under Assad.

early reports ignore the fact that the rulers of Syria are islamofascist fanatics.

And you are ignoring the fact that at least in these early days the Syrians are not acting like Fascists.