The Off Topic Topic

[Richard Hakluyt]

If its just one encounter then the bear is probably more dangerous. But we have dozens or hundreds of encounters each day with other humans. Which is why I fear them 

[Threviel]

What type of bear is it? Polar bear and you'd be dead before you can register that you stumbled across one.

They do tend to start eating before killing, it might take some 20 mins or so before you die if a bear attacks. I can't really imagine many worse deaths.

[Razgovory]

What if it's a Transbear?  A man that transitioned into a bear.

[Tamas]

That is many of our retirement plans 

It's funny because it's true.

[Sheilbh]

Hmmm... well... I live in a place where bears are fairly frequent. I can tell you that more women are killed by men every year than are killed by bears. I'd wager that the number of incidents of women having had encounters where they felt threatened or scared by a man's behaviour is orders of magnitude greater than those who've had scary encounters with bears. I think most women have felt endangered by a man at some point in there lives; and if they haven't, they know a women who has. I doubt the same is true when it comes to bears.

Perhaps if you calculated the rate of scary encounters and the rate of murders per encounter, men would be statistically safer than bears due to the large number of encounters. But in terms of absolute numbers men have a much higher impact on women's safety than bears.

It seems only natural that this would impact women's threat perception. And it seems pretty silly to be offended by that, IMO.

Yes. Of women I've spoken to about it I think more or less all have experienced male violence or the threat/risk of violence. Also waited with female friends at the bus stop that I don't need at a discreet request because there's a man who is concerning them in some way.

I think it's mad to be offended by that or think it's about you.

It's made me conscious of how I behave - I mean I'm an incredibly weak, fairly herbiverous gay man but that's not clear at night when I'm walking down the street. So if I'm walking somewhere for example and I'm behind a woman on her own, chances are I'll cross the road - no extra time/impact for me, but hopefully remove something that could concern her.

[Josquius]

Hmmm... well... I live in a place where bears are fairly frequent. I can tell you that more women are killed by men every year than are killed by bears. I'd wager that the number of incidents of women having had encounters where they felt threatened or scared by a man's behaviour is orders of magnitude greater than those who've had scary encounters with bears. I think most women have felt endangered by a man at some point in there lives; and if they haven't, they know a women who has. I doubt the same is true when it comes to bears.

Perhaps if you calculated the rate of scary encounters and the rate of murders per encounter, men would be statistically safer than bears due to the large number of encounters. But in terms of absolute numbers men have a much higher impact on women's safety than bears.

It seems only natural that this would impact women's threat perception. And it seems pretty silly to be offended by that, IMO.

Yes. Of women I've spoken to about it I think more or less all have experienced male violence or the threat/risk of violence. Also waited with female friends at the bus stop that I don't need at a discreet request because there's a man who is concerning them in some way.

I think it's mad to be offended by that or think it's about you.

It's made me conscious of how I behave - I mean I'm an incredibly weak, fairly herbiverous gay man but that's not clear at night when I'm walking down the street. So if I'm walking somewhere for example and I'm behind a woman on her own, chances are I'll cross the road - no extra time/impact for me, but hopefully remove something that could concern her.

Who thinks it's about them?

If a woman has been a victim of assault then it's obvious they would have this irrational fear of all men and make dangerous decisions rather than risk an encounter with their phobia.
Logically this is clearly wrong. But phobias don't follow logic so nobody can be blamed there.

But when someone hasn't been a victim of such a thing, has no such phobia, and is still pushing this idea that almost certain death, possibly being eaten alive, is better than being alone with a random man....
 That a majority of men couldn't be trusted in this situation of being alone with a random woman.... That is just sexist and dumb.

[Sophie Scholl]

Some of you just...

[Jacob]

Josq, encountering a bear on a trail is not "almost certain death" and the possibility of being eaten alive is quite small. In Canada, on average 3 people are killed annually by bears; people encounter bears significantly more frequently than that.

[Josquius]

Josq, encountering a bear on a trail is not "almost certain death" and the possibility of being eaten alive is quite small. In Canada, on average 3 people are killed annually by bears; people encounter bears significantly more frequently than that.

The version I've heard has you transported to a isolated forest with a bear or a man. Not just seeing a bear in a normal situation on a hiking trail.
The odds of the bear being freaked out and attacking are pretty high.
Also I'm assuming brown or polar bear here. I understand black bears are cowards.
In Svalbard it's literally illegal to leave town without a gun the bears are just that dangerous.

[Sheilbh]

The point I meant about every woman has had a story wasn't that because of their experience they have a "phobia" (these mainly straight women with male partners etc etc), but that every woman I've spoken to about this has a story.

Similarly it's not about distrust or fear of the majority of men or whatever but about a random guy and, sadly, that's again because most women have a story. It is, to nick a phrase, lived experience for many, many women that men can be very dangerous to them.

It's something men should try to think about and be mindful of - not least because we're not mind readers so women have no way of knowing which one is going to be the bad guy.

[Grey Fox]

Men will believe a women that says it's been attacked by a bear, almost instantly.

It isn't the universal the other way around and it seems a lot of women feel betrayed by that.

[Jacob]

The version I've heard has you transported to a isolated forest with a bear or a man. Not just seeing a bear in a normal situation on a hiking trail.
The odds of the bear being freaked out and attacking are pretty high.
Also I'm assuming brown or polar bear here. I understand black bears are cowards.
In Svalbard it's literally illegal to leave town without a gun the bears are just that dangerous.

So your assumption is that the random man appearing is someone like their uncle or brother or yourself - so harmless; while the random bear appearing is a highly aggressive grizzly or polar bear.

Perhaps the women are making the assumption that the man appearing is strong and has violent inclinations, while the bear is a well fed black bear on its way to a nice blackberry patch.

[Josquius]

The version I've heard has you transported to a isolated forest with a bear or a man. Not just seeing a bear in a normal situation on a hiking trail.
The odds of the bear being freaked out and attacking are pretty high.
Also I'm assuming brown or polar bear here. I understand black bears are cowards.
In Svalbard it's literally illegal to leave town without a gun the bears are just that dangerous.

So your assumption is that the random man appearing is someone like their uncle or brother or yourself - so harmless; while the random bear appearing is a highly aggressive grizzly or polar bear.

Perhaps the women are making the assumption that the man appearing is strong and has violent inclinations, while the bear is a well fed black bear on its way to a nice blackberry patch.

I'm assuming a roll of the dice. It could be any man. Though playing that game the odds are good they're not going to attack a random woman. Too many men do think some very bad stuff is OK. But they're still a minority overall.
Thinking about it I'd even say get rid of men overall and you're just talking about the domestic prison population -  you'd still be talking more likely than not they're not going to attack.

We don't have black bears in Europe so I would imagine they're not what comes to mind at the mention of bears. Though if that is how they were parsing things it would make the claim less mad.

[Valmy]

Well the whole bear-man thing didn't surprise me at all. Once you become a teenager as a guy you notice that people are suddenly low key afraid of you. Most concerningly: the police 

And you have to make a choice to either make an effort to assure people that no, you are a fluffy harmless bunny of a man or try to use this newfound power to your advantage. Or do one or the other depending on the situation.

Because we live in a patriarchal society where violence by men is both the cause and solution to all problems. And the assumption also is that we have no control over our sexual urges and without the iron grip of civilization will rape everything slightly resembling a human being. Those are just assumptions built into our culture. And what came first? The assumptions or the behaviors? I don't know. That is up to anthropologists to figure out I guess.

And this has a double edged sword if you are a man. Yes it makes you more respected and feared and sometimes seen heroically. However, it also is kind of dehumanizing and justifies locking us all up in prisons. I also think it is why men struggle socially and often feel alone and alienated.

But it also sucks for women because they are told to be paranoid about their physical safety and if they get sexually assaulted sometimes take the blame because hey men are subhuman monsters who can't be expected to control themselves so it is obviously the woman's fault. And the expectation that is somehow the job of a woman to civilize men (while also somehow being overly emotional and irrational...I don't know none of this makes any logical sense).

So yeah we all grew up in a society where men's violence and sexual predatory nature are an assumption. Of course women would choose a bear. I mean most people haven't experienced a bear and it is all very theoretical whereas having a violent or scary interaction with a man might be very visceral indeed. Now granted women who have had close encounters with bears might feel differently? I don't know. Most people live in cities today.

But I guess my main concern about this whole man-bear discourse is that it is mainly going to be used to attack transwomen, because that is the main purpose these days of bringing up the fear people have for men. These transwomen are just trying to get into a woman's bathroom to rape women. Because otherwise there some kind of invisible force field around women's bathrooms keeping rapists out otherwise. There is no other way to rape a woman than become a transwoman. But more seriously the notion that being violent and sexually predatory is so ingrained in being born a male that no hormone treatment or identity can wash it away, they still should be feared as a predator.

Also the online toxicity between men and women is kind of sad to see in general, as somebody who wants us all to be a community and team that makes me sad. Not surprised or anything, just sad.

[crazy canuck]

Hmmm... well... I live in a place where bears are fairly frequent. I can tell you that more women are killed by men every year than are killed by bears. I'd wager that the number of incidents of women having had encounters where they felt threatened or scared by a man's behaviour is orders of magnitude greater than those who've had scary encounters with bears. I think most women have felt endangered by a man at some point in there lives; and if they haven't, they know a women who has. I doubt the same is true when it comes to bears.

Perhaps if you calculated the rate of scary encounters and the rate of murders per encounter, men would be statistically safer than bears due to the large number of encounters. But in terms of absolute numbers men have a much higher impact on women's safety than bears.

It seems only natural that this would impact women's threat perception. And it seems pretty silly to be offended by that, IMO.

Yes. Of women I've spoken to about it I think more or less all have experienced male violence or the threat/risk of violence. Also waited with female friends at the bus stop that I don't need at a discreet request because there's a man who is concerning them in some way.

I think it's mad to be offended by that or think it's about you.

It's made me conscious of how I behave - I mean I'm an incredibly weak, fairly herbiverous gay man but that's not clear at night when I'm walking down the street. So if I'm walking somewhere for example and I'm behind a woman on her own, chances are I'll cross the road - no extra time/impact for me, but hopefully remove something that could concern her.

Who thinks it's about them?

If a woman has been a victim of assault then it's obvious they would have this irrational fear of all men and make dangerous decisions rather than risk an encounter with their phobia.
Logically this is clearly wrong. But phobias don't follow logic so nobody can be blamed there.

But when someone hasn't been a victim of such a thing, has no such phobia, and is still pushing this idea that almost certain death, possibly being eaten alive, is better than being alone with a random man....
 That a majority of men couldn't be trusted in this situation of being alone with a random woman.... That is just sexist and dumb.

I am not sure where to start, but I will pick a women's fear of men is rationale.