Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Point fails--no one is genociding Palestinians. That is part of a false narrative intended to delegitimize Israel.

The current war is one of the least deadly in modern times.

https://imgur.com/a/DHOUcW3

This may be true but "It wasn't genocide, it was only ethnic cleansing" isn't a great defence.

[Razgovory]

I don't want to print a sign saying I'll burn Tehran to the ground.  First because I couldn't do it, and second because I believe that would make me a bad person.

I will continue to come here and express my negative judgement of protestors who call for more dead Israelis.  You can call it whining if you want but I see things differently.

The issue isn't whether these people are cunts. They obviously are.
Its those pointing to them and going "See! See! Anyone who dares to speak against Israel is like this! Anti zionism is anti semitism!"
Its like saying there's no difference between those criticising the Saudi or Iranian regime and the "muslims are subhuman and should all be killed" brigade

Zionism is the idea that Jews have a right to their own country.  Anti-Zionism is idea that Jews do not have a right to their own country.  There is no real comparable ideology to this.  There aren't a large group of people arguing that Iran should be abolished.  This is not about criticism, praising rocket attacks, cheering on the death of soldiers and the destruction of the cities isn't criticism.  They want Israel gone.  That is the core of the Anti-zionism movement.

[grumbler]

Point fails--no one is genociding Palestinians. That is part of a false narrative intended to delegitimize Israel.

The current war is one of the least deadly in modern times.

https://imgur.com/a/DHOUcW3

Point fails - no one is genociding Jews.  And no one is claiming that this war compares in total deaths to WW2.

[The Minsky Moment]

Point fails - no one is genociding Jews.

Only because of lack of capability to accomplish the task. For Hamas, the will and intent is there.

[grumbler]

Point fails - no one is genociding Jews.

Only because of lack of capability to accomplish the task. For Hamas, the will and intent is there.

As is the will and intent to genocide/ethnically cleanse the Palestinians among members of Israel's government.  Israeli terrorism on the West Bank is being completely ignored (or even encouraged) by the Israeli government while the world is distracted by Gaza.

[The Minsky Moment]

As I see it, if one imagines a scale of military response from 1 to 10, if we assume as a matter of international law and the right to self-defense, Israel is within its rights to be at a "6" (the specific number doesn't matter for the example), there are concerns because Israel is actually at a "7."  That's a real issue and a real concern and fair basis for critical comment.  It's not anti-semitic or even "anti-Zionist" to say that Israel should back off from the "7" or even for the United States to say we don't and won't support seveny kind of behavior from the Israelis.

But the other concern is that critics of Israel are using Israel's improper prosecution of 7 level intensity as an excuse to argue that Israel MUST go to zero or at least to some very low number that leaves Hamas freedom of action and compromises Israel's security.  And in that sense the Horowitz/OvB critique has some merit.

[DGuller]

Recent experience shows that genocide fulfillment ratio, defined as the number of innocents killed divided by number of innocents you have the capability to kill, is close to 100% for Hamas, and close to zero percent for Israel.  It's not quite 100% because Hamas chose to take some innocent civilians as hostages, but it's close enough.  Sure, you can make an argument that if you give Hamas the power to kill every Israeli, they may start using it more judiciously and the fulfillment ratio would go down, but frankly I'd rather not test that theory.

[viper37]

As I see it, if one imagines a scale of military response from 1 to 10, if we assume as a matter of international law and the right to self-defense, Israel is within its rights to be at a "6" (the specific number doesn't matter for the example), there are concerns because Israel is actually at a "7."  That's a real issue and a real concern and fair basis for critical comment.  It's not anti-semitic or even "anti-Zionist" to say that Israel should back off from the "7" or even for the United States to say we don't and won't support seveny kind of behavior from the Israelis.

But the other concern is that critics of Israel are using Israel's improper prosecution of 7 level intensity as an excuse to argue that Israel MUST go to zero or at least to some very low number that leaves Hamas freedom of action and compromises Israel's security.  And in that sense the Horowitz/OvB critique has some merit.

The OvB-Netanyahu way is to kill everyone until there's no one standing.

There are disagreements to be expected.

This is a terrorist according to OvB and Raz.  I disagree.


When you are willing to kill 30-40 people to get at your target, a target that you're even sure is there, or is the right one, where is you military goal?  Is the goal the intended target or the 30 or 40 people that were killed around it?

To some, it does not matter because they were all guilty.  Just being Palestinians made them guilty, as Raz as constantly reminded us, there are polls showing support for Hamas among the Palestinians, it's enough to justify the killing of most of them and the eventual deportation of the others.  This is the plan from the beginning, we have the leaks, and we have the US comments reminding Israel that it won't accept it.  Doesn't mean they won't try.

[Josquius]

Another reason Percentages are popular with people who like to misrepresent data.

I don't want to print a sign saying I'll burn Tehran to the ground.  First because I couldn't do it, and second because I believe that would make me a bad person.

I will continue to come here and express my negative judgement of protestors who call for more dead Israelis.  You can call it whining if you want but I see things differently.

The issue isn't whether these people are cunts. They obviously are.
Its those pointing to them and going "See! See! Anyone who dares to speak against Israel is like this! Anti zionism is anti semitism!"
Its like saying there's no difference between those criticising the Saudi or Iranian regime and the "muslims are subhuman and should all be killed" brigade

Zionism is the idea that Jews have a right to their own country.  Anti-Zionism is idea that Jews do not have a right to their own country.  There is no real comparable ideology to this.  There aren't a large group of people arguing that Iran should be abolished.  This is not about criticism, praising rocket attacks, cheering on the death of soldiers and the destruction of the cities isn't criticism.  They want Israel gone.  That is the core of the Anti-zionism movement.

You're arguing against what I said by backing up what I said completely and insisting all anti zionists are the worst of the batch.

There's tonnes of people who would label themselves as anti zionist who don't approve of violence.

Some anti zionists oppose the existence of Israel and want it gone- again this takes a range of forms from kill them all to secularise Israel.
Others recognise history has happened, Israel is a fact, and instead simply oppose further Israeli expansionism.

And you know fine well it's not simply about whether Jews deserve self determination. That's not much of an issue at all outside of the true black anti semites.
The question is why does one groups right of self determination completely override another groups right of self determination?

[The Minsky Moment]

The OvB-Netanyahu way is to kill everyone until there's no one standing.

I'll let Otto speak for himself but clearly that statement is wrong re Netanyahu.  He has a nuclear arsenal and overwhelming conventional force at his disposal; if his "way" was to "kill everyone until there's no one standing" then by the end of the day on October 8, every man, woman and child in Gaza would either have been dead or sitting down.  Since nothing like that happened or has happened, the claim is false.

[OttoVonBismarck]

As I see it, if one imagines a scale of military response from 1 to 10, if we assume as a matter of international law and the right to self-defense, Israel is within its rights to be at a "6" (the specific number doesn't matter for the example), there are concerns because Israel is actually at a "7."  That's a real issue and a real concern and fair basis for critical comment.  It's not anti-semitic or even "anti-Zionist" to say that Israel should back off from the "7" or even for the United States to say we don't and won't support seveny kind of behavior from the Israelis.

But the other concern is that critics of Israel are using Israel's improper prosecution of 7 level intensity as an excuse to argue that Israel MUST go to zero or at least to some very low number that leaves Hamas freedom of action and compromises Israel's security.  And in that sense the Horowitz/OvB critique has some merit.

The OvB-Netanyahu way is to kill everyone until there's no one standing.

There are disagreements to be expected.

This is a terrorist according to OvB and Raz.  I disagree.


When you are willing to kill 30-40 people to get at your target, a target that you're even sure is there, or is the right one, where is you military goal?  Is the goal the intended target or the 30 or 40 people that were killed around it?

To some, it does not matter because they were all guilty.  Just being Palestinians made them guilty, as Raz as constantly reminded us, there are polls showing support for Hamas among the Palestinians, it's enough to justify the killing of most of them and the eventual deportation of the others.  This is the plan from the beginning, we have the leaks, and we have the US comments reminding Israel that it won't accept it.  Doesn't mean they won't try.

Dude you are literally the dumbest faggot in history. If the Israelis wanted to "kill everyone" Gaza would have been depopulated months ago. It is quite clear that has not happened because Israel is largely (if imperfectly) following reasonable norms of warfare in urban areas. It can be expected to kill innocent noncombatants.

It looks nothing at all like intentional mass ethnic killings (whether you want to call it genocide or w/e) in any other comparable situation.

[Razgovory]

Another reason Percentages are popular with people who like to misrepresent data.

You're arguing against what I said by backing up what I said completely and insisting all anti zionists are the worst of the batch.

There's tonnes of people who would label themselves as anti zionist who don't approve of violence.

Some anti zionists oppose the existence of Israel and want it gone- again this takes a range of forms from kill them all to secularise Israel.
Others recognise history has happened, Israel is a fact, and instead simply oppose further Israeli expansionism.

And you know fine well it's not simply about whether Jews deserve self determination. That's not much of an issue at all outside of the true black anti semites.
The question is why does one groups right of self determination completely override another groups right of self determination?

No, the right of Jews to have self determination is the main issue with anti-Zionism. "True black anti-semites"?  I don't know what that means.  The vast majority of anti-Zionists don't believe Israel has a right to exist.

[Josquius]

Another reason Percentages are popular with people who like to misrepresent data.

You're arguing against what I said by backing up what I said completely and insisting all anti zionists are the worst of the batch.

There's tonnes of people who would label themselves as anti zionist who don't approve of violence.

Some anti zionists oppose the existence of Israel and want it gone- again this takes a range of forms from kill them all to secularise Israel.
Others recognise history has happened, Israel is a fact, and instead simply oppose further Israeli expansionism.

And you know fine well it's not simply about whether Jews deserve self determination. That's not much of an issue at all outside of the true black anti semites.
The question is why does one groups right of self determination completely override another groups right of self determination?

No, the right of Jews to have self determination is the main issue with anti-Zionism.

It's really not.
Again. Why does zionists right of self determination (let's not pretend it's all Jews) override Palestinians right of self determination?

 

"True black anti-semites"?  I don't know what that means. 

I was playing on the expression true blue with the colour of fascists.
Out and out traditional nazis would oppose Jews even breathing anywhere.

The vast majority of anti-Zionists don't believe Israel has a right to exist.

Putting aside that no country has a right to exist....
Going to need proof on that one.

[Razgovory]

The Palestinians do have a right to self government, and maybe they'll get it when they stop fighting.  We weren't going to bring up the German right to self-determination in 1945.

Out and out traditional Nazis?  No, way more people oppose the Jews a right to a country than that. More people oppose Jews breathing than that.

For people who oppose the Jews the right to a country I would write down "The Muslim world".  They make up the majority of the anti-Zionist population.  Some do recognize that Israel is stronger than they are and can't be immediately destroyed, but few recognize that Jews have a right to self determination like any other country.  I could add a multitude of others such as those who believe in anti-colonialism and a large number of Communists, but most of the people who are so interested in Israel that they identify themselves as "anti-zionist" aren't primarily interested in criticizing the Israeli judicial system.  They want the whole thing gone.

[Josquius]

The Palestinians do have a right to self government, and maybe they'll get it when they stop fighting.  We weren't going to bring up the German right to self-determination in 1945."

Yeah sure. The Palestinians are the problem. They just need to stop resisting whilst their lands get seized then they'll definitely get their country back.
And you can absolutely guarantee getting every single one of millions of people to behave is possible.

Out and out traditional Nazis?  No, way more people oppose the Jews a right to a country than that. More people oppose Jews breathing than that.

I notice you keep dodging the awkward question here.
Why do zionists do expecially have a right to a country that they can seize bits of another people's wouldbe country at will?

For people who oppose the Jews the right to a country I would write down "The Muslim world".  They make up the majority of the anti-Zionist population.  Some do recognize that Israel is stronger than they are and can't be immediately destroyed, but few recognize that Jews have a right to self determination like any other country.  I could add a multitude of others such as those who believe in anti-colonialism and a large number of Communists, but most of the people who are so interested in Israel that they identify themselves as "anti-zionist" aren't primarily interested in criticizing the Israeli judicial system.  They want the whole thing gone.

We clearly aren't talking about the Muslim world here though. We are talking about in the west.

And no. I recognise you watch incredibly one sided sources on this topic but there's a lot more nuance to criticism of zionism than that.