Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

How would you describe the general US attitude to Israel then if not wilfully blind?
Hands off? Trusting?
Eliminate that judgement from what I said if you want, the point holds. Even those who are usually unquestionably supportive of Israel are indicating they're not pleased with current events.

Do we also eliminate the judgement "unquestionably supportive" if that's what I want?

[Josquius]

How would you describe the general US attitude to Israel then if not wilfully blind?
Hands off? Trusting?
Eliminate that judgement from what I said if you want, the point holds. Even those who are usually unquestionably supportive of Israel are indicating they're not pleased with current events.

Do we also eliminate the judgement "unquestionably supportive" if that's what I want?

No, because that's the typical US position which has changed to abstention.

[Admiral Yi]

No, because that's the typical US position which has changed to abstention.

.
OK.  Just keep repeating that then, but leave off the part about "everyone has an opinion."  It's meaningless.  It has no content.  It's intended to create the illusion of reasonableness.

[crazy canuck]

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.

You would need to read the next two paragraphs of my post to understand the point.  If you just read the first paragraph, then I'm not surprised that you are struggling.

[viper37]

They were unsatisfied with what the UN was giving them, they waited for the Arab coalition to DOW them

What strikes me about this comment is the complete denial of Arab agency.  They aren't real people making real choices, just passive things being manipulated by others.

There is a hypothetical world where the Arabs grudgingly accept the Partition Plan borders and make a real effort to live in peace with Israel. It's a world that very likely looks a lot better for the Palestinians. It's worth asking why that world didn't come about.  Hint- it's not just because Ben-Gurion's voodoo manipulated the Arabs into a failed attempt at ethnic cleansing.

They're not manipulated.  How do you get that from what I wrote?

Ben Gurion and his faction knew they would attack because they would reject the UN partition plan.

A faction of the Israeli leadership wanted to reject the plan because it wasn't enough, Ben Gurion convinced them to accept the partition plan because they would gain more territory in the coming war anyway.

It's not about the Arab leader's agency.

Where did I mention them?

They had agency: they chose to reject the partition plan and attack.  They could have agreed to it, or try to negotiate something else before hand, or even after, though that was difficult due to conditions on the field.

But it is the truth about Ben Gurion and his faction, and we've discussed this before.

It's not about some magic wand or some secret nefarious plot to control the world.  It's about having a strategic mind.

You don't become a successful revolutionary because you are the most stupid and delicate flower of the rebels.

His faction knew they were getting help from Stalin and were in a good position to win the coming war.  They took advantage of it to expand their territory at the expense of the Palestinians.

Would the Arabs have done the same to the Jewish-Israelis if the conditions were reversed?  Most likely.

That does not mean the expulsion and the whole colonization process that came after was justified by any God given right, was morally right in any way, or that any action of Israel and the IDF, or the various factions preceding the formation of the State should just be shrugged of.  You know better than that.

[Admiral Yi]

OK, Ben-Gurion had a strategic mind.  Then what?

[Razgovory]

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.

You would need to read the next two paragraphs of my post to understand the point.  If you just read the first paragraph, then I'm not surprised that you are struggling.

You posed a counterfactual.  Then posted several posts irrelevant to it.  The Zionists not declaring a state wouldn't have an affect on British withdrawal or the UN.  Certainly the British have blame in this, they could have stopped the Arab armies.  But they kinda wanted the Arabs to win.  Sadly, the UN agreement would not work so long as Arab pride, hate and racism were motivating factors.

"Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs".  A large number of non-subservient Jews in Palestine could simply not be tolerated.  It was one thing that Europeans could take over, they were numerous and well armed.  But Jews?  The people miserable little people we spit on and throw rocks at?  That's too much!

That is the primary cause of the war.

[crazy canuck]

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.

You would need to read the next two paragraphs of my post to understand the point.  If you just read the first paragraph, then I'm not surprised that you are struggling.

You posed a counterfactual.  Then posted several posts irrelevant to it.  The Zionists not declaring a state wouldn't have an affect on British withdrawal or the UN.  Certainly the British have blame in this, they could have stopped the Arab armies.  But they kinda wanted the Arabs to win.  Sadly, the UN agreement would not work so long as Arab pride, hate and racism were motivating factors.

"Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs".  A large number of non-subservient Jews in Palestine could simply not be tolerated.  It was one thing that Europeans could take over, they were numerous and well armed.  But Jews?  The people miserable little people we spit on and throw rocks at?  That's too much!

That is the primary cause of the war.

If it's the counterfactual you don't like then you should probably take that up with JR since I was responding to his version of the counterfactual.

The fact that you didn't notice that really displays how difficult it is for you to appreciate the other side of the argument.

[Razgovory]

I thought you were making up your own.  Actually, what is your point?  The Jews are not blameless in the Jihad to destroy them?  I've seen that argument before.

[Josquius]

K.  Just keep repeating that then, but leave off the part about "everyone has an opinion."  It's meaningless.  It has no content.  It's intended to create the illusion of reasonableness.

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm stating a pretty uncontroversial fact here. Look at the history of UN votes around Israel and Palestine and the US is consistently there, often fairly lonely, backing up Israel.
This time around they abstained which was a very big deal and sent a clear message to the world that they wanted Israel to chill out a bit.
When even Israel's strongest supporter is telling them to cool it a little, then its pretty clear we're in territory where basically everyone who matters agrees Israel is not doing a good job.

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.

You would need to read the next two paragraphs of my post to understand the point.  If you just read the first paragraph, then I'm not surprised that you are struggling.

You posed a counterfactual.  Then posted several posts irrelevant to it.  The Zionists not declaring a state wouldn't have an affect on British withdrawal or the UN.  Certainly the British have blame in this, they could have stopped the Arab armies.  But they kinda wanted the Arabs to win.  Sadly, the UN agreement would not work so long as Arab pride, hate and racism were motivating factors.

"Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs".  A large number of non-subservient Jews in Palestine could simply not be tolerated.  It was one thing that Europeans could take over, they were numerous and well armed.  But Jews?  The people miserable little people we spit on and throw rocks at?  That's too much!

That is the primary cause of the war.

"Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
"In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea"
"We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023"

But sure. Its only the Palestinian side which has genocidal cunts in prominent positions.

[Razgovory]

"Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
"In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea"
"We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023"

But sure. Its only the Palestinian side which has genocidal cunts in prominent positions.

'48 Jos.  But I'll bite, who on the Palestinian side is not a cunt?  I mean figuratively.  I don't think they have many women in leadership positions there.

[The Minsky Moment]

His faction knew they were getting help from Stalin and were in a good position to win the coming war. 

What's this business about Stalin?  The Soviets voted for partition because they wanted to weaken Britain.  Stalin didn't give any help to Israel.  The Czech arms shipments began under Masaryk, before the coup. The only thing the Soviets did was not stop them. The Czechs were well paid for it.

[crazy canuck]

K.  Just keep repeating that then, but leave off the part about "everyone has an opinion."  It's meaningless.  It has no content.  It's intended to create the illusion of reasonableness.

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm stating a pretty uncontroversial fact here. Look at the history of UN votes around Israel and Palestine and the US is consistently there, often fairly lonely, backing up Israel.
This time around they abstained which was a very big deal and sent a clear message to the world that they wanted Israel to chill out a bit.
When even Israel's strongest supporter is telling them to cool it a little, then its pretty clear we're in territory where basically everyone who matters agrees Israel is not doing a good job.

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.

You would need to read the next two paragraphs of my post to understand the point.  If you just read the first paragraph, then I'm not surprised that you are struggling.

You posed a counterfactual.  Then posted several posts irrelevant to it.  The Zionists not declaring a state wouldn't have an affect on British withdrawal or the UN.  Certainly the British have blame in this, they could have stopped the Arab armies.  But they kinda wanted the Arabs to win.  Sadly, the UN agreement would not work so long as Arab pride, hate and racism were motivating factors.

"Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs".  A large number of non-subservient Jews in Palestine could simply not be tolerated.  It was one thing that Europeans could take over, they were numerous and well armed.  But Jews?  The people miserable little people we spit on and throw rocks at?  That's too much!

That is the primary cause of the war.

"Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
"In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea"
"We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023"

But sure. Its only the Palestinian side which has genocidal cunts in prominent positions.

There's really no point in interacting with him any further on this issue. He has internalized a falsehood that the Israelis are only good, and the Palestinians are only bad. The only thing that's differentiating him from Otto is Otto is going full facsist.

[Razgovory]

That strawman again?

[viper37]

His faction knew they were getting help from Stalin and were in a good position to win the coming war. 

What's this business about Stalin?  The Soviets voted for partition because they wanted to weaken Britain.  Stalin didn't give any help to Israel.  The Czech arms shipments began under Masaryk, before the coup. The only thing the Soviets did was not stop them. The Czechs were well paid for it.

He turned a blind eye to the arms shipment coming from the Eastern bloc.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2/d512

The arms and equipment of neither Jews nor Arabs are sufficient for prolonged, full-scale hostilities, and both sides are involved in negotiations for obtaining matériel from various outside sources. The Jews have managed in various ways surreptitiously to acquire large amounts of arms and equipment from British Army stocks in Palestine. [Page 1282] The arms and equipment of neither Jews nor Arabs are sufficient for prolonged, full-scale hostilities, and both sides are involved in negotiations for obtaining matériel from various outside sources. The Jews have managed in various ways surreptitiously to acquire large amounts of arms and equipment from British Army stocks in Palestine. [Page 1282] The efforts of Zionist agents abroad have resulted in the stockpiling of quantities of small arms, automatic weapons, and ammunition in various eastern European countries for eventual shipment to Palestine. Most of these stocks come from Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and possibly from Poland and the USSR. Jewish acquisitions from the US consist mainly of machinery, motor vehicles, and air transport. The Israeli forces are much more concerned with obtaining such heavier equipment than in acquiring small arms. Jewish acquisitions from the US consist mainly of machinery, motor vehicles, and air transport. The Israeli forces are much more concerned with obtaining such heavier equipment than in acquiring small arms.

Stalin would never have let anything leave Czechoslovakia, especially not USSR weapons shipment if it did not serve his interests to brew trouble in the ME.

It is help toward the creation of Israel, whether they were compensated or not.  It could have easily been embargoed, it was not.  The USSR turned a blind eye to it, the same way America would do it later in numerous conflicts during the Cold War. 

As it is now, I'm not sure all US military shipments to Israel are free, yet it's considered military help.  Why would it not be so for the USSR? 

It's a different situation with Ukraine where no country expect to be paid back for anything.