Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Viper, isn't it as simple as saying that Palestine was yet another pawn in the Cold War?

The US was concerned that the Arabs would be supported by the Soviets and so we're at first concerned about alienating the Arabs, but in the end sided with Israel, and of course, that meant that the Soviets would certainly support the Arabs, and the Arabs would be forced to accept that support, because in a bipolar world once one of the chooses aside, the other side is definitely going to the other bipolar power.

[Razgovory]

You know the Czechs sold to both sides, yeah?

[The Minsky Moment]

The Czechs (and thus the Communist bloc) got millions in hard currency selling second rate war surplus like Czech knock off early 40s model Messerschmidts, broken down Spitfires and surplus rifles and ammo. All Stalin did was not stop it from happening for a short time until Mapam (the Israeli labor communists) lost the election to Ben Gurion's party, at which time Stalin cut off the sales.   This was at the time the "rootless cosmopolitan" campaign was getting started in the Soviet Union with explicit attacks on Jews and Zionism.  Stalin's sole interest and motivation was undermining the British, nothing more; his role was entirely passive; the notion of some kind of Ben Gurion-Stalin alliance is complete fantasy.

France on the other hand would emerge as a real and effective supporter of Israel's military for many years, providing top end kit and culminating in critical contributions to the Israeli nuclear program

[Admiral Yi]

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm stating a pretty uncontroversial fact here. Look at the history of UN votes around Israel and Palestine and the US is consistently there, often fairly lonely, backing up Israel.
This time around they abstained which was a very big deal and sent a clear message to the world that they wanted Israel to chill out a bit.
When even Israel's strongest supporter is telling them to cool it a little, then its pretty clear we're in territory where basically everyone who matters agrees Israel is not doing a good job.

I'm talking about the hypocrisy of repeating "everyone has an opinion."

[Josquius]

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm stating a pretty uncontroversial fact here. Look at the history of UN votes around Israel and Palestine and the US is consistently there, often fairly lonely, backing up Israel.
This time around they abstained which was a very big deal and sent a clear message to the world that they wanted Israel to chill out a bit.
When even Israel's strongest supporter is telling them to cool it a little, then its pretty clear we're in territory where basically everyone who matters agrees Israel is not doing a good job.

I'm talking about the hypocrisy of repeating "everyone has an opinion."

The word hypocrisy is about as relevant as the word banana here

[OttoVonBismarck]

Good news, and a reminder: don't cry crocodile tears for dead Palestinians, they don't even love their own children. They only care about killing, and hating, Jews. (To also be clear the three sons were all adults, and were actively engaged in terroristic acts.)

Israel kills 3 sons of Hamas chief Haniyeh in Gaza strike, says they were terrorists
IDF says relatives were 'en route to carry out terror activity'; 2 grandchildren also killed; Qatar-based terror chief tells Al Jazeera he thanks God 'for honor of their martyrdom'

By EMANUEL FABIAN, FOLLOW
GIANLUCA PACCHIANI FOLLOW
and AGENCIES

Today, 8:04 pm Updated at 8:41 pm

Israel on Wednesday killed three sons of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh in a strike in the northern Gaza Strip, saying they were operatives in the terror group. Two of Haniyeh's grandchildren were also killed in the attack and a third was wounded, Hamas media said.

The three sons — Hazem, Amir and Mohammad — were killed after the car they were driving in was struck in Gaza City's Shati camp, Hamas said.

The deaths were first reported by Al Jazeera and then confirmed by Haniyeh himself and Hamas.

The IDF and Shin Bet later confirmed killing the three men, saying they were operatives in the terror group. According to the IDF and Shin Bet, Amir Haniyeh was a squad commander in the Hamas military wing, while Hazem and Mohammad Haniyeh were lower-ranking operatives, also in the military wing.

The IDF said that the trio were "en route to carry out terror activity in the area of central Gaza" when they were struck.

Haniyeh, the political leader of Hamas who is largely based in Qatar, confirmed their deaths in comments to Al Jazeera, telling the news outlet that he "thanks God for bestowing upon us the honor of their martyrdom."

In a phone interview broadcast on the TV network, the terror leader vowed that the group will not surrender, and that such actions will not make it change its goals and its demands in hostage release talks.

"Their pure blood is for the liberation of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa, and we will continue to march on our road, and will not hesitate and will not falter," Haniyeh said. "With their blood, we bring about hope, a future and freedom for our people and our cause."

"Our demands are clear and specific and we will not make concessions on them. The enemy will be delusional if it thinks that targeting my sons, at the climax of the negotiations and before the movement sends its response, will push Hamas to change its position," he told the TV station, adding that "the blood of my sons is not dearer than the blood of our people."

According to Hebrew media reports, the strike on Haniyeh's three sons was not discussed in the war cabinet ahead of time, despite the sensitive timing as Israel is still awaiting an official Hamas response to the latest hostage deal offer.

The Ynet and Walla news outlets cited unnamed Israeli officials saying Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant were not informed in advance of the strike. A source told Kan news that the strike could jeopardize the ongoing talks.

A video circulating online purports to show the moment Haniyeh is told of his sons' deaths while visiting a hospital in Qatar. He calmly praises God and then suggests the tour continue on to the next room. It is not clear whether the video was genuine or staged.

Haniyeh told Al Jazeera that nearly 60 members of his family had been "martyred" in the war, and that he has paid the same price as the rest of the Palestinian people.

His eldest son confirmed in a Facebook post that his three brothers were killed. "Thanks to God who honored us by the martyrdom of my brothers, Hazem, Amir and Mohammad and their children," wrote Abdel-Salam Haniyeh.

Al Jazeera reported that the three men were struck by a missile launched from a drone as they were traveling in a car on their way to congratulate relatives and acquaintances on the occasion of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr, which began Tuesday evening.

Appointed to head the terror group in 2017, Haniyeh has moved between Turkey and Qatar's capital Doha, and has emerged as the most prominent negotiator in the latest ongoing round of talks for a truce and hostage release deal. Israel sent a delegation to talks in Cairo this week, while Hamas representatives have also been in the Egyptian capital for negotiations.

While some officials have expressed optimism that a deal could be reached after months of stalled talks, so far Hamas appears to be sticking to its demand that the war end before it agrees to release any of the hostages the terror group kidnapped from Israel on October 7 who are still being held in the Strip. Israel has outright rejected such a demand.

Thousands of Hamas terrorists poured across the border with Israel in a mass assault on October 7, killing close to 1,200 people and kidnapping 253 to Gaza. During a weeklong truce in late November, 105 of the hostages were released, four were freed earlier and three have been rescued alive by troops, while the bodies of 12 hostages have been recovered. The IDF believes that 129 of those kidnapped remain in the Strip, including at least 34 bodies.

During Israel's ensuing war against Hamas in Gaza, the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry says more than 33,000 people have been killed in the fighting, an unverified figure that includes some 13,000 Hamas gunmen Israel says it has killed in battle. Since the IDF ground invasion began, 260 IDF soldiers have been killed in the fighting.

Last week, Haniyeh said that the terror group was not prepared to budge on any of the conditions it had previously laid out, saying in a televised speech that "we are committed to our demands: the permanent ceasefire, comprehensive and complete withdrawal of the enemy out of the Gaza Strip, the return of all displaced people to their homes, allowing all aid needed for our people in Gaza, rebuilding the Strip, lifting the blockade and achieving an honorable prisoner exchange deal."

Earlier this month, police in Israel arrested Haniyeh's sister, an Israeli citizen living in Tel Sheva. Three of the Hamas leader's sisters live in the southern town and were married to Arab Israelis. Two are now widowed and have fallen foul of Israeli authorities in the past by making illegal trips into Gaza in 2013 via Egypt. They were both given eight-month suspended sentences for the visits in 2015. Later that year, Israel denied Haniyeh's request that his sisters be permitted to attend his son's wedding in Gaza.

Times of Israel staff contributed to this report.

[Josquius]

Good news, and a reminder: don't cry crocodile tears for dead Palestinians, they don't even love their own children. They only care about killing, and hating, Jews. (To also be clear the three sons were all adults, and were actively engaged in terroristic acts.)

[

Sure. And during the eclipse Israelis top rabbis engaged in a massive orgy where they fucked all night long and sacrificed 666 Christian children to Moloch. Cos Jews. 

[Razgovory]

Good news, and a reminder: don't cry crocodile tears for dead Palestinians, they don't even love their own children. They only care about killing, and hating, Jews. (To also be clear the three sons were all adults, and were actively engaged in terroristic acts.)

[

Sure. And during the eclipse Israelis top rabbis engaged in a massive orgy where they fucked all night long and sacrificed 666 Christian children to Moloch. Cos Jews. 

There's lots of anti-zionists who believe that.

[Valmy]

That fucker in Qatar gets so excited when he hears more Palestinians got killed.

[OttoVonBismarck]

More extreme antisemitism from the blatantly antisemitic anti-Israeli coalition, this time lead by hateful and corrupt South Africa (a Russian proxy state.)

Take careful note--they make no attempt to make a distinction of "Israeli" vs "Jew", they are specifically mocking Jews and mocking the Holocaust--Israel was not even a country when the Holocaust happened so there is pretty clearly a mindset that they aren't against Israel, they are against all Jews.

I truly do believe this is the majority mindset of people who are anti-Israel, especially in the Global South and Europe. I am open to the idea it is less of a problem in America, at least now (although American Muslims are prone to antisemitism), but Europe just has a big reservoir of hatred for Jews. Britain is actually one of the worst since it was a major facilitator of the Holocaust and was largely indifferent to it occurring, combined with being virulently pro-Arab and anti-Jew during Israel's formative years.

You really can't trust the people in these countries on the matter of Jews, antisemitism is too much of a baked in cultural value.

https://www.sajr.co.za/holocaust-parody-at-uct-intended-to-offend-jews/

Holocaust parody at UCT 'intended to offend Jews

South African Jews were horrified this week at the erection of a deeply offensive sculpture on the University of Cape Town (UCT) campus on 2 April that mocks the horror inflicted upon Jews during the Holocaust.

Fine arts student Ylara Salie made a copy of the bronze memorial plaque at the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp, which said, "Forever let this place be a cry of despair and a warning to humanity, where the Nazis murdered about one and a half million men, women and children, mainly Jews, from various countries of Europe. Auschwitz-Birkenau 1940-1945."

On her version, she placed the word "Israel" over the words "the Nazis", the number "28 000" over the words "one and a half million", the word "Muslim" over the word "Jews", the word "Gaza" over "various countries of Europe", the word "Palestine" over the words "Auschwitz-Birkenau", and the date "1948-" over the date 1940-1945, implying that her version of a "Holocaust" began in 1948. She then called on students to adopt the Jewish memorial custom of placing pebbles on the plaque, which she titled, "Never Again".

This sculpture appeared a week after anti-Israel students and members of the public harassed and hurled abuse at Jewish students during so-called "Israeli Apartheid Week" (IAW).

"The sheer unapologetic antisemitism at UCT has gone too far," said South African Union of Jewish Students Western Cape (SAUJS WC) Chairperson Erin Dodo, speaking in her personal capacity. "How do you expect Jewish students to react to seeing their history literally erased for the purpose of an art project?"

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism used by most countries in the world makes it clear that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is antisemitic.

"The parody of the Auschwitz-Birkenau monument that appeared today on UCT campus goes beyond merely falsifying history for ideological purposes," read the SAUJS WC statement released on 2 April, calling for the sculpture's permanent removal. "It's a deliberate distortion of past realities with an aim of causing maximum hurt to Jewish people.

"When protests against Israel take so ugly a form, it's clear that anti-Jewish bigotry is at the core of these protests rather than any valid concern about justice and human rights."

The sculpture has since been removed. It's unclear if Salie had permission to erect it, but Cape South African Jewish Board of Deputies (Cape SAJBD) Executive Director Daniel Bloch said the Cape SAJBD was investigating the matter.

"The Cape SAJBD believes in freedom of expression," said Chairperson Adrienne Jacobson. "However, the student at the Michaelis School of Fine Arts, which is part of UCT, has crossed the lines between innovative artwork and that which is offensive and hurtful.

"The use of the Holocaust plaque is highly insensitive and is disrespectful to the memory of the six million Jews who were systematically executed by the Nazis," said Jacobson. "While we mourn all loss of life and believe the death of Palestinian civilians is tragic, it doesn't give anyone the right to diminish the atrocities of the Holocaust. We're engaging with Michaelis, and will be investigating this matter further."

Professor Adam Mendelsohn, the director of the Kaplan Centre for Jewish Studies, said, "The 'artwork's' message is doubly offensive. It invokes and literally overwrites the sacred memory of those who died at Auschwitz-Birkenau. And it lays the terrible price of the war in Gaza at the feet of the Jewish people – not Hamas, not Israel, but Jews. Given that UCT commits to principles and policies designed to advance inclusivity and respect and is otherwise intolerant of prejudice, I trust that the university will take appropriate action."

Jakub Nowakowski, the director of the Cape Town Holocaust & Genocide Centre, said, "While the creator of this art project claims in her 'artist statement' that history repeats itself, we must make it clear that actually, it doesn't. In spite of the fact that after Auschwitz, the world witnessed other acts of genocide, never ever again was a site like Auschwitz-Birkenau created.

"The plaque that the project is based on is situated at the very end of the train track, which was purposely built in 1944 to allow for a more efficient process of killing more than 400 000 Hungarian Jews. It was almost 80 years ago, in May of 1944, when that mass-murder process began. The process of killing took place in gas chambers, which served no other goal but killing. The bodies were burned in crematorium ovens that served no other purpose than burning bodies. In such a way, 400 000 Hungarian Jews were killed in less than three months.

"Using the memory of those who suffered and died in such a place for an art project distorts history and reveals the author's lack of understanding of basic historical facts. It's also problematic because today, we understand how damaging it is to appropriate anyone's suffering. There's no doubt that the innocent victims of every conflict deserve remembrance. However, this shouldn't come at the expense of the memory of anyone else, including the more than one million Jews and tens of thousands of other victims who are remembered at Auschwitz."

Benji Shulman, the director of public policy at the South African Zionist Federation, said, "One of the cruellest aspects of the new antisemitism is its perverse use of the Holocaust as a stick to beat Jews. Our enemies make use of the Holocaust to criticise Israel and the Jews by equating Israel with Nazi Germany, and to characterise the Holocaust as a moral lesson from which the Jews have failed to learn.

"The accusation of genocide during the Israel-Hamas war is a false narrative," he said. "According to retired British Colonel Richard Kemp, the average combatant-to-civilian death ratio is about 1 to 1.5. This is astonishing since according to the United Nations, the average combatant-to-civilian death ratio in urban warfare has been 1 to 9. It's concerning that the artist, who visited Auschwitz-Birkenau, is unable to differentiate genocide from war."

"My inspiration came from Auschwitz-Birkenau," Salie, a third year sculpture student at UCT, wrote in her artist statement. "I visited the camp in December 2023. I couldn't understand how the same group of people that endured the horrors of the Holocaust was perpetuating the same violence against another group of people. The piece was created with the intention of showing the irony of the plaque I saw at Auschwitz-Birkenau."

Salie saw no irony in the fact that the war was started by Hamas after it perpetrated the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, on 7 October.

Responding to SAUJS's statement, she said she was "being silenced" by "the weaponisation of antisemitism".

The virulently antisemitic and terrorist-supporting UCT Palestinian Solidarity Forum (UCT PSF) said the artistic statement wasn't "meant to offend anyone besides the genocide supporters and Zionists in disguise. If the shoe fits, wear it."

On the same day, the UCT PSF said it supported a post titled "Reject normalisation, support the resistance: we don't want peace, we want freedom. We don't want to live side-by-side, we want the settlers to leave our land. There's no conversation to be had."

Along with abusing Jewish students during IAW, the UCT PSF invited Hezbollah and Houthi leaders to address UCT students via video calls. The Cape SAJBD continues to engage with the university to investigate these events.

UCT told the SA Jewish Report it was looking into the matter, but wasn't able to respond by the deadline given.

[viper37]

Viper, isn't it as simple as saying that Palestine was yet another pawn in the Cold War?

Yes.

But it's irrelevant to Israel's actions when judging them.

I don't see Israel as a defenless victim that had no choice in doing what it did to survive.  I don't buy that GI Joe vs Cobra narrative.  I leave that to Raz and OvB.

[Razgovory]

Cornel West and running mate refuse to condemn Hamas attack

 https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/12/politics/cornel-west-melina-abdullah-hamas/index.html

03:22 - Source: CNN
CNN
 —
Independent presidential candidate Cornel West and his running mate, Melina Abdullah, defended their pro-Palestinian views Thursday night in their first joint television interview since Abdullah joined West's campaign this week.

In an interview with CNN's Abby Phillip, the pair declined to call on Hamas to release hostages taken from Israel in exchange for a ceasefire, repeatedly refused to criticize Hamas for its actions in the war and opted not to condemn the group for the October 7 terrorist attacks in Israel.

Abdullah, a board member for Black Lives Matter Grassroots, said she "absolutely" stands behind a statement her group put out two days after October 7, which framed the terrorist attacks as "a desperate act of self-defense."

"I think it's really important to understand where uprisings come from, even when we may disagree with tactics that are used," Abdullah said.

Asked twice if she condemned the October 7 attacks, Abdullah declined to answer directly.

"I find it really troubling that we are constantly asked to condemn Hamas. I'm not a member of Hamas," Abdullah said. "I find it even more troubling that an entire state has been built on the genocide of a people, and I think that we have to start with that first,"

West also defended Hamas' actions by calling the October 7 attacks a "counterterrorist response."

"I don't believe in killing an innocent anybody," the independent presidential candidate said. "But you don't start with those voices without coming to terms with the vicious killings and occupations that's been going on for 75 years, and then you get a counterterrorist response to that."

Asked to clarify if he was referring to the October 7 attacks as a "counterterrorist response," West said, "Oh, absolutely."

The remarks by West and Abdullah come as the independent ticket actively courts support from Muslim Americans and progressives around the country amid dissatisfaction and anger at President Joe Biden's response to the Israel-Hamas war.

West has made the conflict in Gaza a central campaign issue, repeatedly calling for a permanent ceasefire and an end to Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.

Abdullah expressed strong pro-Palestinian views prior to joining the campaign in connection with her work at Black Lives Matter Grassroots. A Muslim who was raised Baptist, Abdullah said on "The Tavis Smiley Show" on Wednesday – when West introduced her as his running mate – that her religious background ties into the core themes of the West campaign.

"People of faith all want the same thing. We want peace, we want truth, we want love, and we want justice," she said.

Pressed Thursday night by Phillip on whether Hamas should release hostages taken from Israel in exchange for a ceasefire – echoing the ceasefire deal proposed by the US – West instead put the onus on Israel to withdraw its military operation and end Palestinian occupation.

"The IDF is not gonna cease fire just for releasing. They themselves have to stop," West said, referring to the Israel Defense Forces. "The Palestinian lives that are being lost, we've got to start there."

"The IDF has engaged in terrorizing the Palestinians, and terrorizing anybody is wrong, but the terrorism that they are doing, it reaches the point of the crime of genocide. So, for me, they have to stop," he said.

West also said that while Hamas has some "responsibility" for the war in causing harm to civilians, "Hamas is not the culprit, it's the IDF, and they're terrorizing."

He also oppose Ukrainian aid.  Weird how the far-left and the far-right come together like that.

[Iormlund]

Footage circulating of Iranian UAVs en route to Israel.

[viper37]

sigh.

[viper37]

Well, it's officially war, then.

Bombing the embassy could not be let without an official response, and here it is.

We'll see what happens next.