Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Well we didn't let Axis soldiers off the hook (with exceptions), maybe legally but not morally; but we did let Allied forces off the hook be it Western terror bombing or to a lesser extent the Soviet rape-rampage through Germany and Hungary.

How many Germans did the the US, UK and France were forcibly displaced to Canada so they could colonize Germany with their own citizens?

We've been over this, did you forget?  The Soviets forcibly displaced 12 million Germans and colonized that territory with their own citizens and that of Poland.

[Admiral Yi]

Not close to what I said at all.
Different people will have different ideas but with where Israel is now basically everyone, even their usually wilfully blind allies, agree they've gone too far.

Different people have different ideas but some of them are willfully blind.  Mine is the right one.

[Tamas]

Not that my point was that original or interesting, but it is still remarkable how the three of you just miss it entirely and return to rehearsing the same argument for the umpteenth time.

[Solmyr]

I assume they are being held in conditions no worse than the Israeli hostages being held by Hamas.

I don't think Hamas is a good baseline for how to treat the other side in a war. Presumably Israel can do much better than that.

[Threviel]

I assume they are being held in conditions no worse than the Israeli hostages being held by Hamas.

We westerners strive to behave humane because it's the right thing to do, not because our enemies do it, because if they did they wouldn't be our enemies.

[Admiral Yi]

I can't imagine a more pointless protest than this one.  Israelis that want hostages released.

[viper37]

Well we didn't let Axis soldiers off the hook (with exceptions), maybe legally but not morally; but we did let Allied forces off the hook be it Western terror bombing or to a lesser extent the Soviet rape-rampage through Germany and Hungary.

How many Germans did the the US, UK and France were forcibly displaced to Canada so they could colonize Germany with their own citizens?

We've been over this, did you forget?  The Soviets forcibly displaced 12 million Germans and colonized that territory with their own citizens and that of Poland.

Where did I mention the USSR in this?

If you shelter a snake and you act surprised when the snake bites you...

[viper37]

What kind of stupid plan is that?

We've discuss this before, it's all in Ben Gurion's note that they know the Arabs will not accept the plan and will attack. 

He convinces the others to accept the plan because it's only temporary, knowing there will be a war and they will fight back, taking more territory than the plan allows for.

You don't gain anything by waiting for it to be served/given to you.   Do you not understand the concept of taking risks to gain something more?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Okay, and in your world because a Jewish leader suspect the Arabs would reject the UN Partition Plan, it is the Jews fault they got attacked? You really are just a bigoted antisemite.

[Razgovory]

Well we didn't let Axis soldiers off the hook (with exceptions), maybe legally but not morally; but we did let Allied forces off the hook be it Western terror bombing or to a lesser extent the Soviet rape-rampage through Germany and Hungary.

How many Germans did the the US, UK and France were forcibly displaced to Canada so they could colonize Germany with their own citizens?

We've been over this, did you forget?  The Soviets forcibly displaced 12 million Germans and colonized that territory with their own citizens and that of Poland.

Where did I mention the USSR in this?

If you shelter a snake and you act surprised when the snake bites you...

No you kept out the relevant parties.  I can do that too.  How many Palestinians did the Chinese forcibly displace to Brazil so they could colonize the land?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I heard there were some Jewish leaders that did some stuff and because of that they ended up in Auschwitz (where they belong) per viper.

[Josquius]

everyone is stupid except me

Ironic from you on this topic.

I heard there were some Jewish leaders that did some stuff and because of that they ended up in Auschwitz (where they belong) per viper.

You're the only one saying anything close to this.

Not close to what I said at all.
Different people will have different ideas but with where Israel is now basically everyone, even their usually wilfully blind allies, agree they've gone too far.

Different people have different ideas but some of them are willfully blind.  Mine is the right one.

How would you describe the general US attitude to Israel then if not wilfully blind?
Hands off? Trusting?
Eliminate that judgement from what I said if you want, the point holds. Even those who are usually unquestionably supportive of Israel are indicating they're not pleased with current events.

[The Minsky Moment]

They were unsatisfied with what the UN was giving them, they waited for the Arab coalition to DOW them

What strikes me about this comment is the complete denial of Arab agency.  They aren't real people making real choices, just passive things being manipulated by others.

There is a hypothetical world where the Arabs grudgingly accept the Partition Plan borders and make a real effort to live in peace with Israel. It's a world that very likely looks a lot better for the Palestinians. It's worth asking why that world didn't come about.   Hint- it's not just because Ben-Gurion's voodoo manipulated the Arabs into a failed attempt at ethnic cleansing.

[crazy canuck]

They were unsatisfied with what the UN was giving them, they waited for the Arab coalition to DOW them

What strikes me about this comment is the complete denial of Arab agency.  They aren't real people making real choices, just passive things being manipulated by others.

There is a hypothetical world where the Arabs grudgingly accept the Partition Plan borders and make a real effort to live in peace with Israel. It's a world that very likely looks a lot better for the Palestinians. It's worth asking why that world didn't come about.   Hint- it's not just because Ben-Gurion's voodoo manipulated the Arabs into a failed attempt at ethnic cleansing.

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

But such a hypothetical world doesn't exist, because there was no trust in the UN process and for good reason.

It's inconsistent to condemn the Arabs for attacking, but leave the Israelis blameless.  It is also extreme folly to exclude the British from any blame for just throwing up their hands I'm leaving, knowing that they were leaving a volatile power vacuum behind.

[Razgovory]

There is also a world in which the Zionists accept the partition plan passed in the UN, and do not announce the state of Israel immediately upon the withdrawal of the British.

I struggle to see how this makes a difference.