Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Something I've noticed with the Pro-Pals.  They want "intifada"  A common slogan is "There is only one solution: Intifada revolution!  And "Globalize the Intifada"  There's a website called "Electronic intifada".  Do these people know what they are saying?  Most of them are too young to remember that last Intifada, but it was a catastrophe.  Thousands of people died, it did the Palestinians no good, and basically killed the peace process.  The whole thing is shocking and horrifying. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

The guy who runs Electronic intifada is a Muslim who lives in America (Chicago). They do know what they are saying, which is why we have to oppose them.

[Valmy]

Something I've noticed with the Pro-Pals.  They want "intifada"  A common slogan is "There is only one solution: Intifada revolution!  And "Globalize the Intifada"  There's a website called "Electronic intifada".  Do these people know what they are saying?  Most of them are too young to remember that last Intifada, but it was a catastrophe.  Thousands of people died, it did the Palestinians no good, and basically killed the peace process.  The whole thing is shocking and horrifying.

I personally haven't heard that particular term related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but yeah an intifada would only massively empower the Israeli right wing and lead to mass death among the Palestinians and set their interests back considerably. So obviously that would be very counter-productive to anybody who wants to see the suffering of the Palestinians to end and for some kind of peaceful settlement that will allow the Palestinians to start living their lives in peace again to happen.

But you are assuming that those pro-Palestine people actually give two shits about Palestinians and don't just want to kill jews or win some great victory for the greater glory of Palestine at the expense of the ordinary people, who must die for the glory of the nation or whatever.

[Valmy]

The guy who runs Electronic intifada is a Muslim who lives in America (Chicago). They do know what they are saying, which is why we have to oppose them.

I guess it is easy to call for others to die when you are on the other side of the planet.

[viper37]

Okay, so Trump isn't a nationalist because... I am wrong?

What is a patriot?  Is it wrong to be a patriot?  Is it wrong to love your country?

I don't see Trump at that kind of men.  Sorry.

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.  Maybe you should just stop.

See, you have zero notion of what it is being a nationalist, but you are convinced it is wrong because someone told you so.

It's no different than your average GOPtard.

Try to think for yourself for once.

[Razgovory]

Viper, I don't understand what "I don't see Trump at that kind of men.  Sorry." even means, so just stop.  You aren't even coherent anymore.

[grumbler]

The guy who runs Electronic intifada is a Muslim who lives in America (Chicago). They do know what they are saying, which is why we have to oppose them.

And the way to oppose them is to vote for Biden.  The pro-Pals in the vids you linked harassed Biden supporters; they don't harass Trump supporters, because they recognize that they are on the same side.

[grumbler]

See, you have zero notion of what it is being a nationalist, but you are convinced it is wrong because someone told you so.

It's no different than your average GOPtard.

Try to think for yourself for once.

I am certain that you do not know what nationalism is, because you would not be spewing this crap if you did.  Nationalism is love of a nation: a set of people with supposedly-distinct characteristics, against everyone who is not part of that nation because they do not share the characteristics.  Nations are not states. Nationalists are not patriots.

[grumbler]

The irony of the soft fascists that says that they have to support Trump because Biden does not kowtow to foreign interests and then claim that they are patriots for opposing decency and empathy is clear.  They have instead, to support a man who
1. openly admits that he wants to be a dictator,
2. openly claims that he cannot lose an election and any election he does lose is only lost because of some vague and evidence-free "rigging,"
3. openly decries the separation of church and declares himself to be a Christian despite not knowing the bible and never attending church services,
4. loudly proclaims that those who rose up in insurrection and stormed the capital with the express desire to murder the Vice-president of the United States are, in fact, patriots and political prisoner (despite calling for their punishment when he was president), and
5. openly declares his intention to use the office of the POTUS to punish his political opponents.

No American patriot could possibly support such a man, even if his opponent was four years alder than him and will not suck Netanyahu's cock like Trump wants to.

Not even the Israelis themselves agree with Adolf von Bismarck: Jerusalem protests show rage against Netanyahu is no longer waiting for the end of the war. 

[viper37]

See, you have zero notion of what it is being a nationalist, but you are convinced it is wrong because someone told you so.
It's no different than your average GOPtard.
Try to think for yourself for once.

I am certain that you do not know what nationalism is, because you would not be spewing this crap if you did.  Nationalism is love of a nation: a set of people with supposedly-distinct characteristics, against everyone who is not part of that nation because they do not share the characteristics.  Nations are not states. Nationalists are not patriots.

Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state.^[1][2] As a movement, it presupposes the existence^[3] and tends to promote the interests of a particular nation,^[4] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining its sovereignty (self-governance) over its perceived homeland to create a nation-state. It holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity,^[5] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power.^[4][6] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on a combination of shared social characteristics such as culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,^[7][8] and to promote national unity or solidarity.^[4] Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional culture.^[9] There are various definitions of a "nation", which leads to different types of nationalism.^[10] The two main divergent forms identified by scholars are ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism.


How is that evil?



Further more:
Le nationalisme est un principe politique¹ apparu à la fin du XVIII^e siècle, tendant à légitimer l'existence d'un État-nation pour chaque peuple, défini par des caractéristiques propres et communes à ses membres, comme une langue, des traditions historiques et culturelles ou des valeurs politiques. Initialement le nationalisme est opposé à la royauté (régime politique qui en France sera ensuite nommé Ancien Régime). Il s'impose progressivement en Europe au cours du XIX^e siècle et se traduit au début du XX^e siècle par la disparition de quatre empires multiethniques et autocratiques : les deux Empires centraux germaniques, le russe et le turc. Depuis son avènement, le nationalisme apparaît comme une évidence dans la vie politique et sociale².


Translation:
Nationalism is a political principle1 that appeared at the end of the 18th century, tending to legitimize the existence of a nation-state for each people, defined by characteristics specific to and common to its members, such as a language, historical and cultural traditions. or political values. Initially nationalism was opposed to royalty (a political regime which in France would later be called the Ancien Régime). It gradually established itself in Europe during the 19th century and resulted at the beginning of the 20th century in the disappearance of four multi-ethnic and autocratic empires: the two Germanic Central Empires, the Russian and the Turkish. Since its advent, nationalism has appeared as evidence in political and social life2.



Again, nothing evil here.  Nothing that says you should build a wall between Mexico and the US, nothing that says you should park immigrants in detention centers, nothing that says Donald Trump is a nationalist, nothing that screams "White Power!" and concentration camps as Raz and so many other implies.

Patriotism is loving one's country.  You have your border, you have already achieved self determination, you control your own government.  A nation has no border, no complete control over its government, or no government at all.  There's nothing wrong for a Cherokee to be proud of his/her identity.  There's nothing wrong for an Israeli to be proud of his identity.  There's nothing wrong for an American to be proud and celebrate the 4th of July.

There's always a problem when it comes to excess, like everything else in life.

[Tonitrus]

How many laps has this thread's core argument run now?

[crazy canuck]

How is that evil?

The bit about excluding people who don't fit the characteristics set by the nationalists for belonging to the nation.

[OttoVonBismarck]

FWIW nationalism is pretty obviously evil and fueled many wars and genocides. Viper tries to sugarcoat it because he is a Francophone nationalist, a pretty infamously shitty group of people.

[Razgovory]

How many laps has this thread's core argument run now?

I haven't even posted my thing about how, really, Palestine is a queer issue.

[The Brain]

The "nationalism is evil" talking point is obviously false, and is just a smear used to tell peoples like Finns, Estonians etc that they should give up sovereignty and embrace a place in the Russian state project de jour. It's also used against people who feel that a Jewish state should be allowed to exist. It can be safely disregarded.