Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Josquius]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

Thats up to them. From what I gather they are pretty big on being distinct from the Swedish majority.

Well your idea that citizenship doesn't make you a Swede is certainly not unique. It is a view espoused by the Sweden Democrats right-wing nutjobs.

And the Sami parties.
Who I would imagine lean rightwards given the rural, farming focussed way of life of many of the voters.
But that's no reason to deny their right of self determination as much as I do prefer a more left wing outlook.

[DGuller]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

Thats up to them. From what I gather they are pretty big on being distinct from the Swedish majority.

Well your idea that citizenship doesn't make you a Swede is certainly not unique. It is a view espoused by the Sweden Democrats right-wing nutjobs.

I don't think you can avoid this discussion, especially not if you're a European country that was formed as an ethnic state.  Ethnicity and citizenship are just separate concepts, and obviously that separation fueled a whole bunch of wars in Europe over the centuries and quite a few genocides, so the danger of drawing that distinction is obvious. 

However, no matter how obviously dangerous this distinction is, you can't just pretend that it's not there when it is there in the minds of many people.  When a country is formed around an ethnicity, it's inevitable that a lot of people would think about whether someone's ethnicity is congruent with their citizenship.  I think countries that are not melting pots should be very careful about their immigration policies for these reasons, regardless of how irrational you think it is for people to care about ethnicity.

[Sheilbh]

I mean, we don't say "spare a thought of the conscripted tail gunners" when celebrating the Battle of Britain.

I've never been to a Battle of Britain celebration so I've no idea. It's not unusual to commemorate the loss of life on all sides of a war. Sympathise or empathise is maybe the wrong but I think you can definitely feel pity.

Obviously it will be rather different for Ukrainins and now v the future.

I don't have an issue with feeling pity for Russians fighting or dying in this war. I'm also not confident enough in my own courage to resist an authoritarin regime particularly - as will often be the case for the soldiers - one that has lasted my entire life. I think it's possible to feel that without it compromising support for Ukraine or that people, including soldiers, are responsible for their actions.

[crazy canuck]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

I understand that the Sami consider themselves to the indigenous population of what is now northern Sweden and the rest of you are the colonialists/immigrants.

[The Brain]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

Thats up to them. From what I gather they are pretty big on being distinct from the Swedish majority.

Well your idea that citizenship doesn't make you a Swede is certainly not unique. It is a view espoused by the Sweden Democrats right-wing nutjobs.

I don't think you can avoid this discussion, especially not if you're a European country that was formed as an ethnic state.  Ethnicity and citizenship are just separate concepts, and obviously that separation fueled a whole bunch of wars in Europe over the centuries and quite a few genocides, so the danger of drawing that distinction is obvious. 

However, no matter how obviously dangerous this distinction is, you can't just pretend that it's not there when it is there in the minds of many people.  When a country is formed around an ethnicity, it's inevitable that a lot of people would think about whether someone's ethnicity is congruent with their citizenship.  I think countries that are not melting pots should be very careful about their immigration policies for these reasons, regardless of how irrational you think it is for people to care about ethnicity.

There is a big difference between being a Swede and being an ethnic Swede. Sami and Torne Valley Finns etc are not ethnic Swedes. Just like not all Russians are ethnic Russians.

[Barrister]

There is a big difference between being a Swede and being an ethnic Swede. Sami and Torne Valley Finns etc are not ethnic Swedes. Just like not all Russians are ethnic Russians.

I'm quite possibly projecting Canadian views on Sweden, but here me out.

There's a difference between being an indigenous ethnic minority, and being an ethnic minority where there is a separate country where your group is the majority.

Indigenous people like the Sami (our Canada's First Nations) - this is their home, end of story.  They can go from being the biggest patriots, to being some of the biggest critics of their country to be sure.

If you're an ethnic minority - it's more question of what is in your heart.  I wouldn't question someone's right to be a Swede (or a Canadian) just because one's heritage is Finnish, or Sudanese, or whatever.  But that doesn't mean there aren't some people whose loyalty in their own heart is more to the mother country than it is to their current country.  Because that's a matter of the heart one shouldn't assume that their loyalty automatically goes to the mother country (Jews are constantly and unfairly accused of this), but doesn't mean the phenomenon is entirely unknown either.

[The Brain]

FWIW I think loyalties can vary a lot. Being loyal is not a requirement for being a Swede.

[Razgovory]

I'll feel sympathy for the Russian conscripts after the war.  Not right now.

[HVC]

FWIW I think loyalties can vary a lot. Being loyal is not a requirement for being a Swede.

That's exactly what a descendant of a Finn would say

[The Brain]

FWIW I think loyalties can vary a lot. Being loyal is not a requirement for being a Swede.

That's exactly what a descendant of a Finn would say

 

[Barrister]

I feel sympathy for Russian conscripts now.

But as long as they are taking arms against Ukraine (even if being forced) I wish all possible success to the Armed Forces of Ukraine in killing them.  In a slightly different context it was sad that Old Yeller needed to be put down, but it still needed to be done.

[HVC]

How dare you compare Russians to dogs... everyone loves dogs.


But yes, in a broad sense I agree with you. As long as they're being used by Russia, willingly or not, they have to be stopped. That includes killing them. Unwilling soldiers will conquer Ukraine just as a willing soldier will, if you let them.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Indigenous people like the Sami (our Canada's First Nations) - this is their home, end of story.  They can go from being the biggest patriots, to being some of the biggest critics of their country to be sure.

Swedes are just as indigenous to Sweden as the Sami though. That's something that gets forgotten a bit: Europeans are the indigenous people of the continent. Maybe not the exact region where they reside now, but no less indigenous than the various American nomads are.

[Zoupa]

I've seen very little evidence (verging on none) that they're unwilling. Time and again when mobiks post those protest videos appealing to the Czar, they say they're not refusing to fight for the motherland, they just want more food or clothes or ammo or to get paid on time. You never see an appeal saying "hey Czar, we kinda don't want to be invading this country next door and killing a bunch of folks".

[HVC]

I've seen very little evidence (verging on none) that they're unwilling. Time and again when mobiks post those protest videos appealing to the Czar, they say they're not refusing to fight for the motherland, they just want more food or clothes or ammo or to get paid on time. You never see an appeal saying "hey Czar, we kinda don't want to be invading this country next door and killing a bunch of folks".

Because those guys get pushed to the front line. Just because you're forced to fight doesn't mean you're stupid enough to try to die faster.

Now you can argue in the numbers, but I'm sure there are unwilling recruits.