Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Josquius]

There's lots of criminal-on-criminal criminal activity. Normal people don't weep for Mexican drug cartel members either.

Are you sure about that?
I'm certain there's been plenty of examples of kids forced to be drug mules and such things which absolutely is regarded as there being more victims.

I find the idea that Swedish citizens who identify as Finnish/Palestinian/whatever aren't "true" Swedes problematic at best.

OK? So why do you say this?

Serbian mercenary commander complains that his people are treated like untermensch in the Russian army: https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1744468684033179807?s=20

Among other things, they were ordered to assault a position with no ammo, and when refused were herded off to freeze and starve to death.



Because of examples like this, I would not bet good money on this imminent Russian victory all them pro-Russians have been talking about.

As sad as the ethnic cleansing of minorities and using random kids as meat shields is, this is the other side of that coin. Good on the Russians for misusing a sparse resource so wonderfully.

[The Brain]

There's lots of criminal-on-criminal criminal activity. Normal people don't weep for Mexican drug cartel members either.

Are you sure about that?
I'm certain there's been plenty of examples of kids forced to be drug mules and such things which absolutely is regarded as there being more victims.

Are we discussing Russian children now? We've moved on from soldiers?

I find the idea that Swedish citizens who identify as Finnish/Palestinian/whatever aren't "true" Swedes problematic at best.

OK? So why do you say this?

There seems to exist an idea that holding citizenship isn't enough to be considered a true [person of a country]. This idea seems unsound and destructive to me.

[Josquius]

There's lots of criminal-on-criminal criminal activity. Normal people don't weep for Mexican drug cartel members either.

Are you sure about that?
I'm certain there's been plenty of examples of kids forced to be drug mules and such things which absolutely is regarded as there being more victims.

Are we discussing Russian children now? We've moved on from soldiers?

You already moved on from soldiers with talking about criminals. Thats what I was talking about.

There seems to exist an idea that holding citizenship isn't enough to be considered a true [person of a country]. This idea seems unsound and destructive to me.

OK?
Again if you disagree with the idea why did you come up with it and push it?
You might want to  bare in mind too we're talking about basically the complete opposite situation to immigration here.

[The Brain]

I don't think we'll make much progress here.

[Solmyr]

Worth noting that while in English there is only one word (Russian), in Russian there are two separate words for the different concepts - Russkii (ethnic Russian) and Rossiyanin (Russian citizen). Most non-Russian ethnicities in Russia consider themselves the latter but very much not the former. The distinction gets muddled when speaking English.

[Tamas]

Worth noting that while in English there is only one word (Russian), in Russian there are two separate words for the different concepts - Russkii (ethnic Russian) and Rossiyanin (Russian citizen). Most non-Russian ethnicities in Russia consider themselves the latter but very much not the former. The distinction gets muddled when speaking English.

Responsibility may be less muddled though. Czechs in particular but other minorities as well deserted en-mass from the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1, for example.

[garbon]

OK?
Again if you disagree with the idea why did you come up with it and push it?
You might want to  bare in mind too we're talking about basically the complete opposite situation to immigration here.

Presumably because of this stance you took.

It is worth remembering a lot of these guys being thrown at the Ukrainians are just regular young men, often from minority groups, who really don't want to be there and have barrier troops ready and waiting to shoot them if they try and turn around.

That appears to suggest they are less committed / less Russian than other members of the Russian state and thus worthy of pity rather than contempt.

[Duque de Bragança]

Worth noting that while in English there is only one word (Russian), in Russian there are two separate words for the different concepts - Russkii (ethnic Russian) and Rossiyanin (Russian citizen). Most non-Russian ethnicities in Russia consider themselves the latter but very much not the former. The distinction gets muddled when speaking English.

This ties in with the Soviet distinction between nationality (ethnicity) and citizenship (as in imperial citizenship). Not a bad system per se mind you, but enforcement may vary.

For some reason this distinction has made it into French, with Russien as Rossiyanin (archaic or rare though).
A Russian acquaintance of mine did not like being called (a) Rossiyanin. 

[Josquius]

Worth noting that while in English there is only one word (Russian), in Russian there are two separate words for the different concepts - Russkii (ethnic Russian) and Rossiyanin (Russian citizen). Most non-Russian ethnicities in Russia consider themselves the latter but very much not the former. The distinction gets muddled when speaking English.

Responsibility may be less muddled though. Czechs in particular but other minorities as well deserted en-mass from the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1, for example.

Didn't they have their own organisation with their own sectors of the front and their own commanders? 
Quite a different situation to the small groups of Siberians thrown into units with Russian commanders, purposefully kept isolated from the outside world, and not really given time to think before being herded towards the Ukrainians. And even then they often mutiny.

OK?
Again if you disagree with the idea why did you come up with it and push it?
You might want to  bare in mind too we're talking about basically the complete opposite situation to immigration here.

Presumably because of this stance you took.

It is worth remembering a lot of these guys being thrown at the Ukrainians are just regular young men, often from minority groups, who really don't want to be there and have barrier troops ready and waiting to shoot them if they try and turn around.

That appears to suggest they are less committed / less Russian than other members of the Russian state and thus worthy of pity rather than contempt.

Trying to compare immigrants in western countries to Russian subject ethnicities is just wrong. They're literally opposite situations.

Pakistani guy moves to the UK. He gets citizenship and has kids. They're all British. That's that and those who disagree with this are racist.
They're not white of course. Come census time they tick the Asian box. But this is different to being British.

On the other hand in Russia its more Russia itself moved into other lands and told the people already there "You're now Russian subjects.".
These groups have gone through a very mixed history under Russian rule. It had its positives during the Soviet times (and its fuck ups) though under the Tsar and now under modern neo-fascist Russia its very much a master and subject situation of pure unmasked resource extraction imperialism of the worst sort.
The census doesn't ask whether they're White or Asian. It asks whether they're Russian or part of another ethnic group (many of whom would be white under western terminology.)

[The Brain]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

[Tamas]

I mean, we don't say "spare a thought of the conscripted tail gunners" when celebrating the Battle of Britain.


I am just not sure this is the time to discuss this. Ukraine is fighting for its literal survival, not just as a country but as a nation. Moreover, their failure in this fight can very well lead to WW3 and would with absolute certainty lead to a severe destabilisation of the world. If for nothing else then because the current Russian regime can only survive on continued conflict and conquest.

Because of this, anyone fighting on Russia's side is a legitimate target to be killed, without regard to whether he is forced to fight or not. Either we as the First World make a stand for the stability of the post-WW2 world order, in which case we do not have the luxury of moral navel-gazing while Ukraine is being devastated, or if we want to return to the might-make-right- centuries of Europe, by all means spend time lamenting the harsh fate of Russian-citizen rapists.

[Grey Fox]

Isn't this the problem? Some of us haven't accepted that the cold war is back.

[Josquius]

I mean, we don't say "spare a thought of the conscripted tail gunners" when celebrating the Battle of Britain.


I am just not sure this is the time to discuss this. Ukraine is fighting for its literal survival, not just as a country but as a nation. Moreover, their failure in this fight can very well lead to WW3 and would with absolute certainty lead to a severe destabilisation of the world. If for nothing else then because the current Russian regime can only survive on continued conflict and conquest.

Because of this, anyone fighting on Russia's side is a legitimate target to be killed, without regard to whether he is forced to fight or not. Either we as the First World make a stand for the stability of the post-WW2 world order, in which case we do not have the luxury of moral navel-gazing while Ukraine is being devastated, or if we want to return to the might-make-right- centuries of Europe, by all means spend time lamenting the harsh fate of Russian-citizen rapists.

I've said this again and again. When someone in a Russian uniform is coming at the Ukrainian soldiers waving a gun then obviously they need killing.
However it is absolutely worth considering who these people are and whether they might not be there by choice.
This opens up potential positive actions both for ensuring Ukraine's short term victory and for freeing Russia down the line.

You mentioned yourself the Czechs in WW1 for instance- was it just an Austrian is an Austrian so kill them all or were efforts made (by both sides) to reach out, encourage soldiers to switch sides, and try to stir internal troubles for the enemy?
The Ukrainians themselves are actively doing this. And they know better than any of us. We shouldn't be blinded by hate to the fact that moral thinking can often have overlaps with the most sensible thing to do.

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

Thats up to them. From what I gather they are pretty big on being distinct from the Swedish majority.

[Tamas]

Ok Josq, that is a good point.

[The Brain]

Do you think the Sami of northern Sweden aren't true Swedes? Or the Torne Valley Finns living on the Swedish side of the border? They didn't immigrate to Sweden.

Thats up to them. From what I gather they are pretty big on being distinct from the Swedish majority.

Well your idea that citizenship doesn't make you a Swede is certainly not unique. It is a view espoused by the Sweden Democrats right-wing nutjobs.