Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Threviel]

  Yeah, those fuckers can burn.

[Josquius]

I'm not so clear on that front.
It is worth remembering a lot of these guys being thrown at the Ukrainians are just regular young men, often from minority groups, who really don't want to be there and have barrier troops ready and waiting to shoot them if they try and turn around.

When they're charging at the Ukrainian lines ak47 in hand they still have to die.
But it is a sad thing.
And makes the Russian leadership all the more scummy.

[Threviel]

And a lot of Germans didn't really like the nazi's either. I don't care, they fight for Putin, they can burn.

They would be worth some tears if they turned their weapons on the barrier troops instead.

[Josquius]

And a lot of Germans didn't really like the nazi's either. I don't care, they fight for Putin, they can burn.

They would be worth some tears if they turned their weapons on the barrier troops instead.

You find the bit at the start of saving private Ryan with the guys saying "don't shoot we are czech" to be funny?

[Threviel]

And a lot of Germans didn't really like the nazi's either. I don't care, they fight for Putin, they can burn.

They would be worth some tears if they turned their weapons on the barrier troops instead.

You find the bit at the start of saving private Ryan with the guys saying "don't shoot we are czech" to be funny?

No. Nothing funny about war.

Edit: Also: Russian citizens in Russian uniforms in a Russian army invading innocent neighbours is not the same as Czech citizens forcibly recruited into a German army invading neighbours.

[viper37]

It is worth remembering a lot of these guys being thrown at the Ukrainians are just regular young men, often from minority groups, who really don't want to be there and have barrier troops ready and waiting to shoot them if they try and turn around.

But they will still be committing war crimes when given the chance.

[Josquius]

All of them?
I've actually not seen anything about conscripts committing war crimes - but then it's not comparing like with like considering they're not exactly taking towns as opposed to the regular Russian army at the start of the war.

And a lot of Germans didn't really like the nazi's either. I don't care, they fight for Putin, they can burn.

They would be worth some tears if they turned their weapons on the barrier troops instead.

You find the bit at the start of saving private Ryan with the guys saying "don't shoot we are czech" to be funny?

No. Nothing funny about war.

Edit: Also: Russian citizens in Russian uniforms in a Russian army invading innocent neighbours is not the same as Czech citizens forcibly recruited into a German army invading neighbours.

Why?
Subject people of the Germans vs subject people of the Russians... Same difference.
 Independent Czechoslovakia was a very brief blip after centuries of German rule.
I suppose a bit of a difference in the high HDI levels of the Czechs vs the Russian empires subjects?


Basically I really don't think this all Russians (never mind non Russians under Russian rule) are evil view is helpful to ending things. Even if you really believe it to be true - much more useful to give them an out. They're victims of shitty fascist neo imperialist nonsense themselves.
Day to day on the ground it changes little. They are fighting for the enemy and need to die. Though it does help provide a path for defections and hopeful eventual uprisings going forward.

The one thing that really bothers me about this is that I just don't look at comments for anything Ukraine related anymore. There's way too many people who are basically putinists... But happen to be from the west so see Russia and Putin as the evil other. Take away their particular nationalism and it's clear which side of the battle for western values that they support with their gleeful gloating over dead Russians.
Dead Russian soldiers are a good thing as far as it helps move Ukraine towards victory.
But to these people it's more than that. They seem to get off on the dead people in itself.

[Threviel]

I don't really understand what this kind of weird racism comes from Jos. A Swede is a Swede regardless of whether his cultural background is Arabic, Swedish or Sami. A Russian citizen is a Russian citizen whatever the cultural background is. A Sami or a Mongol or whatever is still first and foremost a Russian.

I know that there's a time for discussion on the plight of the Russians living under colonial rule in Siberia and the indirect ethnic cleansing that Moscow is doing. But the facts are that those Russians still put on their uniforms and go on a rape-and-murder-fest in Ukraine.

Furthermore they have access to mobile phones and ability to gather all necessary information about the righteousness of the war and they still don the uniform.

When the Ukrainian victory is won and Russia defeated we can go back and talk about the poor Russian soldiers, but as long as they support Putin and the war they can burn.

[Josquius]

I don't really understand what this kind of weird racism comes from Jos. A Swede is a Swede regardless of whether his cultural background is Arabic, Swedish or Sami. A Russian citizen is a Russian citizen whatever the cultural background is. A Sami or a Mongol or whatever is still first and foremost a Russian.

I know that there's a time for discussion on the plight of the Russians living under colonial rule in Siberia and the indirect ethnic cleansing that Moscow is doing. But the facts are that those Russians still put on their uniforms and go on a rape-and-murder-fest in Ukraine.

Furthermore they have access to mobile phones and ability to gather all necessary information about the righteousness of the war and they still don the uniform.

When the Ukrainian victory is won and Russia defeated we can go back and talk about the poor Russian soldiers, but as long as they support Putin and the war they can burn.

Racism?
The Sami are not just Swedes. They're widely recognised as a distinct ethnic group, the indigenous people of Northern Scandinavia.
Russia with the extent of its empire has dozens of such groups and several considerably larger ones besides.

This "they should just say no" stuff is quite naiive I must say. Big vibes of those people you see ranting about refugees with "they should just fight the taliban /whoever instead of running away". Life is not that simple.
Most of these conscripts absolutely don't have access to the same information we do. They're coming from a very different base place.
And again they're not all war criminals - though the Russian military system they've been forced into is one built on brutalisation which strongly encourages you to pass your raping and pillaging forward onto those weaker than you. No forgiveness for those who commit such crimes but it does highlight what the core problem to be tackled actually is.
And all signs suggest the majority are not particularly pro Putin or devoted to the war.

Recognising the shit situation in Russia and seeking to exploit it is a potential avenue with which Ukraine can hasten its victory. There's lots of rumours flying they're doing just this with some of the larger and more urbanised subject people's in Russia.  Quite a few convenient accidents around the Bashkir and tatar lands.
And even besides this short term Ukraine first view, internal national awakenings can be for the better of the people in Russia and ensure more security for its neighbours in future.

It's getting beyond the immediate situation but IMO this reckoning with empire absolutely has to happen to solve the issue of Russia in the mid term. It needs a reckoning with its history like Germany post Ww2.
Russia needs to begin to see much of its history as tainted by Muscovy and seek to excise this as Germany did with Prussia.
Minorities need to wake up and better recognise their situation as subject people exploited by the distant capital- it needs to become the cool thing for people who today tick the Russian box come census time to instead identity more with their locality, even for those who don't have blood links.

[Zoupa]

You're giving us a lot of context as to why we should feel bad when we see those mobiks get slaughtered.

There is close to zero resistance to Putin in russia. He has an 80% approval rating. They've not made any serious attempt at stopping the slide into fascism in over 25 years. They've committed innumerable war crimes in Ukraine, including all the artillerymen and the pilots who drop shells, bombs and rockets on targets that they know are civilian.

None of them care. They're acting like lemmings, slaves. Let them die. I reserve my compassion for the actual victims, not the perpetrators.

[Tamas]

Yeah having experienced Soft Russia under Orban I have very little sympathy for the masses passively accepting the serfdom imposed upon them.

[Threviel]

I don't really understand what this kind of weird racism comes from Jos.

Racism?

Yes, not accepting that a Sami can identify as a Russian stinks of racism and western superiority thinking. You might think of culturally non-Russians as factually non-Russians, but I see very little evidence of themselves seeing themselves as not Russians. You not accepting their Russian-ness is exactly the same as your garden variety local racist not accepting the Britishness of muslims or whatever. 

There's a cultural identification as Russian and a national identification as Russian and although they don't perfectly overlap I would assume that most culturally not Russians in Russia see themselves as citizens of the state of Russia and therefore as Russians. Facts borne out in the simple facts that they apparently die in droves wearing the uniform of Russia and fighting for their own state. Sure, there might be separatists but I don't see very much evidence of mass separatism.

I don't feel happiness or joy as to their misery, most of your points are correct and they seem to live miserable lives. That doesn't make the murdered Ukrainians less murdered. They are perpetrators and I don't feel the slightest sorry for any Russian dying in Ukraine, they are all culprits. Every dead Russian is one step closer to victory.

[Josquius]

I don't really understand what this kind of weird racism comes from Jos.

Racism?

Yes, not accepting that a Sami can identify as a Russian stinks of racism and western superiority thinking. You might think of culturally non-Russians as factually non-Russians, but I see very little evidence of themselves seeing themselves as not Russians. You not accepting their Russian-ness is exactly the same as your garden variety local racist not accepting the Britishness of muslims or whatever. 

There's a cultural identification as Russian and a national identification as Russian and although they don't perfectly overlap I would assume that most culturally not Russians in Russia see themselves as citizens of the state of Russia and therefore as Russians. Facts borne out in the simple facts that they apparently die in droves wearing the uniform of Russia and fighting for their own state. Sure, there might be separatists but I don't see very much evidence of mass separatism.

I don't feel happiness or joy as to their misery, most of your points are correct and they seem to live miserable lives. That doesn't make the murdered Ukrainians less murdered. They are perpetrators and I don't feel the slightest sorry for any Russian dying in Ukraine, they are all culprits. Every dead Russian is one step closer to victory.

81% of Russia identifies as Russian.
It seems pretty certain that some number of that 81% would more 'accurately' be classified in another ethnic group, but if they tick the Russian box then OK, they're Russian. Its not exactly a fair choice they (or their parents or grandparents) have made but the choice was made nonetheless.
But that still leaves 19% of people in the country who are non-Russian.
Its racist to insist everyone who lives in Russia is the same when you have a huge number of the population even under Russian data going "We aren't Russian".

As said. If someone is an enemy soldier then it doesn't matter to the soldiers on the front line how willing they are to be there. A job still has to be done.
But on another level it absolutely does matter whether someone is a fully signed up member of a death squad who willingly signed up to spend their life terrorising civilians vs. someone who was pressganged off the street of their village and thrown into a truck, barely understands the shouting going on around them, and who was handed a gun and told to run in a certain direction or else they'd be shot (and btw we know you have a little sister back home, hint hint).

Also there are several bits of footage floating about of Russian on Russian fighting. Some of it is no doubt just stupid friendly fire. But lots of claims some are mutinies.
We need to accept there absolutely are victims in Russian uniform out there.

[The Brain]

There's lots of criminal-on-criminal criminal activity. Normal people don't weep for Mexican drug cartel members either.

I find the idea that Swedish citizens who identify as Finnish/Palestinian/whatever aren't "true" Swedes problematic at best.

[Tamas]

Serbian mercenary commander complains that his people are treated like untermensch in the Russian army: https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1744468684033179807?s=20

Among other things, they were ordered to assault a position with no ammo, and when refused were herded off to freeze and starve to death.



Because of examples like this, I would not bet good money on this imminent Russian victory all them pro-Russians have been talking about.