Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Josquius]

"here vs elsewhere"?

Franced 24 is an official French news channel.

That's an example. It echoes the usual reporting elsewhere.

Depends where elsewhere...

As I say, basically everywhere I've seen the story is the far right doing their thing.
Quite different to the chat in this thread.

[Duque de Bragança]

"here vs elsewhere"?

Franced 24 is an official French news channel.

That's an example. It echoes the usual reporting elsewhere.

Depends where elsewhere...

As I say, basically everywhere I've seen the story is the far right doing their thing.
Quite different to the chat in this thread.

The chat in this thread is based on local evidence and experience, which is quite different from some slanted media reporting.
Note the Figaro, a conservative mainstream source, will report on the cover-up about the perpetrators' names and first name, and will point out the so-called ultra-right menace would not exist had appropriate steps been taken before.

[Tamas]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67691484

France's education minister has visited a school where some pupils refused to look at a painting of nude women in class, sparking a teacher walkout.

The pupils also accused their teacher of making racist and Islamophobic remarks, which the school denies.

Teachers at the Jacques-Cartier school near Paris refused to work in response.

Tensions had apparently been high since the start of term, with officials citing repeated complaints by parents about coursework and punishments.

The row began when a teacher showed Diana and Actaeon, a Renaissance-era painting portraying a mythical scene from Roman poet Ovid's Metamorphoses.

Several first-year high school students, aged 11 and 12, said they were offended by the work by 17th-Century Italian painter Giuseppe Cesari, Sophie Venetitay from the Snes-FSU teachers union told AFP.

"Some students averted their gaze, felt offended, said they were shocked," Ms Venetitay said, adding that "some also alleged the teacher made racist comments" during a class discussion.

The next day, according to French reports, a parent wrote to the head teacher claiming that his son had been prevented from expressing himself in a later class discussion.

Staff felt they had been left unsupported and were working in a "degraded climate", Ms Venetitay said.

She said the case recalled the brutal killing of Samuel Paty, who was murdered after he showed caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in a class.

French authorities believe untrue rumours spread about the class contributed to inciting an 18-year-old radicalised Chechen refugee to murder him close to the teacher's school in a Paris suburb. Last week, six teenagers were convicted for their role in the murder.

Education Minister Gabriel Attal said the pupils behind the complaints at the Jacques-Cartier school would face disciplinary measures and a team would visit the school to make sure it adhered to "values of the republic".

On Tuesday, classes at the school restarted after several days' interruption.

[crazy canuck]

Several first-year high school students, aged 11 and 12, said they were offended by the work by 17th-Century Italian painter Giuseppe Cesari, Sophie Venetitay from the Snes-FSU teachers union told AFP.

Our world has become rather fragile.

[Jacob]

Our world has become rather fragile.

My take is that it's a contest - or rather a series of contests - about who gets to exercise power. Whose norms should be respected? Whose norms should be respected in a way that effectively impose them on others around them, whether they share those norms or not? And who gets to define the norms and decide if they are being respected altogether?

Fragility - while potentially truly felt by individuals - is primarily a rhetorical position in the contest for power to control and impose norms in the public space. IMO, of course.

[crazy canuck]

Our world has become rather fragile.

My take is that it's a contest - or rather a series of contests - about who gets to exercise power. Whose norms should be respected? Whose norms should be respected in a way that effectively impose them on others around them, whether they share those norms or not? And who gets to define the norms and decide if they are being respected altogether?

Fragility - while potentially truly felt by individuals - is primarily a rhetorical position in the contest for power to control and impose norms in the public space. IMO, of course.

I think you are correct about the series of contests going on throughout various societies.  But I think it is based on a fragility in the sense that one cannot be exposed to other ideas for fear that those other ideas might cause the audience not to be adherents of the view you hold.

[Tamas]

Our world has become rather fragile.

My take is that it's a contest - or rather a series of contests - about who gets to exercise power. Whose norms should be respected? Whose norms should be respected in a way that effectively impose them on others around them, whether they share those norms or not? And who gets to define the norms and decide if they are being respected altogether?

Fragility - while potentially truly felt by individuals - is primarily a rhetorical position in the contest for power to control and impose norms in the public space. IMO, of course.

I think you are correct about the series of contests going on throughout various societies.  But I think it is based on a fragility in the sense that one cannot be exposed to other ideas for fear that those other ideas might cause the audience not to be adherents of the view you hold.

You both make excellent points, my slight problem with the word fragility is that for me at least it implies a temporary or new phenomenon, but this sort of bigotry hiding (especially but not exclusively) behind religion is nothing new and it it was the default in our cultures until fairly recently and it still is in most other cultures as this incident actually highlights. I find it deeply reactionary.

[crazy canuck]

Our world has become rather fragile.

My take is that it's a contest - or rather a series of contests - about who gets to exercise power. Whose norms should be respected? Whose norms should be respected in a way that effectively impose them on others around them, whether they share those norms or not? And who gets to define the norms and decide if they are being respected altogether?

Fragility - while potentially truly felt by individuals - is primarily a rhetorical position in the contest for power to control and impose norms in the public space. IMO, of course.

I think you are correct about the series of contests going on throughout various societies.  But I think it is based on a fragility in the sense that one cannot be exposed to other ideas for fear that those other ideas might cause the audience not to be adherents of the view you hold.

You both make excellent points, my slight problem with the word fragility is that for me at least it implies a temporary or new phenomenon, but this sort of bigotry hiding (especially but not exclusively) behind religion is nothing new and it it was the default in our cultures until fairly recently and it still is in most other cultures as this incident actually highlights. I find it deeply reactionary.

I think a distinction can be drawn between a sincerely held religious belief, and one that is asserted but is merely performative.  I think the latter applies to much of what is happening within the extreme right.

[Tamas]

If the end result is trying to force your views (or "views") on larger society, the distinction doesn't matter much.

[Jacob]

I think a distinction can be drawn between a sincerely held religious belief, and one that is asserted but is merely performative.  I think the latter applies to much of what is happening within the extreme right.

I don't doubt whether in any given case, when necessary, I don't doubt that a court of law could distinguish between the two if that is deemed necessary.

However, I think in many cases the boundaries are unclear and can shift. Sometimes people come to sincerely believe what started as a performative posture. At other times people continue the performance of a belief even after they stop really believing because there's some sort of advantage to the performance or because it's an important identity marker for them.

On consideration, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive either. You can sincerely believe something and not make a big performative deal out of it, or you can believe the same thing while really leaning into performative postures in support of your belief.

In that vein - you can believe or not believe that looking at Ovid's Metamorphoses is inappropriate or religiously forbidden with varying degrees of intensity. It doesn't change the fact that a power struggle is taking place. The site of the power struggle is about how the school, the teacher, the student, the parents, and society at large should show (or not show) the painting. Whether the beliefs are sincerely held or not doesn't change the fact that it's a struggle is occuring, it merely changes one of the arguments in that struggle.

If we conclude that the objections to the painting are sincerely held, the quesiton still remains - how should we deal with that as a society, and as individuals?

[crazy canuck]

I think a distinction can be drawn between a sincerely held religious belief, and one that is asserted but is merely performative.  I think the latter applies to much of what is happening within the extreme right.

I don't doubt whether in any given case, when necessary, I don't doubt that a court of law could distinguish between the two if that is deemed necessary.

Put your doubts to rest, that is in fact the threshold question for a party asserting Freedom of Religion under our Charter.

[HVC]

It's like the David's wang thing that happened in the us a few months back. It's not strictly a Muslim thing, it's a conservative religious person thing.

[Jacob]

Put your doubts to rest, that is in fact the threshold question for a party asserting Freedom of Religion under our Charter.

For sure.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's like the David's wang thing that happened in the us a few months back. It's not strictly a Muslim thing, it's a conservative religious person thing.

In France or in Europe in general, it is a muslim or islamist thing.

[Maladict]

It's like the David's wang thing that happened in the us a few months back. It's not strictly a Muslim thing, it's a conservative religious person thing.

In France or in Europe in general, it is a muslim or islamist thing.

No it isn't. You find the same thing in very conservative Christian communities here. There just aren't many of those left, and they're conveniently located in places that can be ignored.