Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Josquius]

The political compass is a nonsense tool of libertarian propeganda

[Sheilbh]

What I'm not getting is the criticism of Macron for pushing people to extremes. How has he done this?- Is the idea by grabbing the centre he is responsible for the decline of the centre left and centre right parties?

Part of it is just that is the effect he has had. The result of Macron launching a ni-ni party has been to destroy the mainstream centre left in 2017, now in an electoral pact with the hard left and Greens. This election he's wiped out the mainstream centre right - I wouldn't be surprised to see them also fragment and at least some factions ending up allied with the far-right. I also think the RN have gone from 8 seats to over 80 after Macron's term in office - I don't see how you can remove responsibility for that from him.

Separately I'd note that Macron's own positioning in 2017 was that he'd help end the drift to extremes in French politics. His line was basically that the mainstream parties had failed, he would deliver and in doing so that would reduce support for LFI and RN. The problem is that, obviously, rhetorically that's the same message the LFI and RN have (and why I think there's a lot of cross over from 'populism' and 'technocracy'): the mainstream parties/normal democratic politics have failed we can save you.

So Macron set himself the challenge of diminishing the role of the extremes - he has failed at that. In addition by wiping the normal mainstream parties he's created a space where he can dominate but I'm not sure it's healthy politically. I think he's ultimately succeeded in de-politicising politics for many voters which is not a great solution. If you're on the left or right then there are now only the extremes; everything else is 'technocratic' management - largely by the traditional, entrenched French elite. I'm not sure it's great for democracy that your options are tankie, Enarque or fascist. There's not enough ideology there.

It seems to me a bit wishful thinking and that Macron is simply a logical thing to emerge out of a pre-existing dive to the extremes in a system that encourages binary thinking.

I don't think there's anything logical or inevitable about Macron - I think more than almost any other politician in Europe he is a proper 'great man'. If not for him deciding he could break the mould with a new party (sharing his initials), I don't think this is the shape of French politics - and it's why I think there's a question about what happens after him.

There is no replacement at this point - maybe one will emerge. There is no real proper democratic party structure to LREM - there's not really members and activists or anything like a traditional party it is a movement around and supporting a personality. It might split but I don't know what the left/right wings of it would have because there's no party infrastructure - unless they also launch separate personalist movements. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional party infrastructure of the PS and LR may end up being broadly subsumed into the new broad coalitions of the left and right (including and led by the extremes). It's not clear.

[Duque de Bragança]

The political compass is a nonsense tool of libertarian propeganda

Libertarian, a very mainstream tendency in France indeed.

This seems very confused with the placement of some. And he seems confused too 😂

Your previous assessment, was not as bad as the one you just gave. Macron being confused (or confusing ?) was better.

PS: agree broadly with Sheilbh. Some anti-social policies, say diesel fuel taxes, among others, using greenwashing as an excuse (nothing done against gas-guzzling SUVs)while ending the wealth tax (bad timing at the very least) by Macron really helped a lot RN & LFI/whavever coalition.

[Josquius]

The political compass is a nonsense tool of libertarian propeganda

Libertarian, a very mainstream tendency in France indeed.

No, seriously. The political compass was invented by a libertarian activist as a rhetorical tool to convince people of the righteousness of their side. Not as any sort of genuine neutral attempt to explain politics.

Your previous assessment, was not as bad as the one you just gave. Macron being confused (or confusing ?) was better.

PS: agree broadly with Sheilbh. Some anti-social policies, say diesel fuel taxes, among others, using greenwashing as an excuse (nothing done against gas-guzzling SUVs)while ending the wealth tax (bad timing at the very least) by Macron really helped a lot RN & LFI/whavever coalition.

Both apply.
Its a bad way to look at politics and even within the rules it sets up for itself this version is confused.

[Duque de Bragança]

No, seriously. The political compass was invented by a libertarian activist as a rhetorical tool to convince people of the righteousness of their side. Not as any sort of genuine neutral attempt to explain politics.

And? Banned for ever? So you have nothing to say about Macron so you try to divert attention by using the libertarian strawman? Nice try.

As for the so-called "libertarian invention", the French concepts "girouette" or à "géométrie variable" predate your so-called libertarian invention. They are often used for politicians not known for their consistency.
"Rose des Vents" (Wind Rose) would be a more poetic rendering in French but is not used (compass is a false friend since compass = boussole). Guess what, déboussolé, from boussole (compass) means confused. 

So it is perfectly relevant for Macron since no French president has ever flip flopped so hard, constantly, at least verbally or on writing.

[Josquius]

No, seriously. The political compass was invented by a libertarian activist as a rhetorical tool to convince people of the righteousness of their side. Not as any sort of genuine neutral attempt to explain politics.

And? Banned for ever? So you have nothing to say about Macron so you try to divert attention by using the libertarian strawman? Nice try.

Strawman? Nice try at what?
I think it's a pretty interesting and not too well known fact.
I was the one who brought macron up, you're the one who introduced a different topic related to him.

As for the so-called "libertarian invention", the French concepts "girouette" or à "géométrie variable" predate your so-called libertarian invention. They are often used for politicians not known for their consistency.
"Rose des Vents" (Wind Rose) would be a more poetic rendering in French but is not used (compass is a false friend since compass = boussole). Guess what, déboussolé, from boussole (compass) means confused. 

So it is perfectly relevant for Macron since no French president has ever flip flopped so hard, constantly, at least verbally or on writing.

You say they predate it but don't give a year. A quick Google and the references I get, which seem to have quite a different "changing with the wind" meaning, are fairly recent.

[Sheilbh]

Fairly extraordinary reports on Macron trying to form a "national unity government. Le Pen said that at her meeting with Macron yesterday, he mentioned the idea of a "national unity government" including the RN. Le Pen is opposed.

The leader of the Communists said that Macron also spoke about a "national unity government" with him which he seemed to envision including all parties - apparently the Communists would participate, but it would depend on what the government's program was.

Presumably he's trying to see if anyone bites so he can build a coalition, but this feels like where you end up if you don't think politics is about ideology and choices but instead just technocratic "governing". From bulwark against the extremes to trying to create a coalition with them in 5 years is a hell of a journey.

[Duque de Bragança]

I think it's a pretty interesting and not too well known fact.

It's a detail (French meaning) and not particulary relevant in a French context.
Nice try at a diversion (reading comprehension issues and not just in French for you I see).

You say they predate it but don't give a year. A quick Google and the references I get, which seem to have quite a different "changing with the wind" meaning, are fairly recent.

 

They are idioms, and have been used accordingly for a long time. Any francophone would know that.
But then you and the French language... 

TLFI

http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8;s=150447705;

B.   Au fig. Personne versatile, qui change fréquemment d'opinion. Voilà, selon moi, comme on doit agir lorsque l'on tient au titre d'homme sérieux... Autrement on n'est qu'une girouette (BARRIÈRE, Faux bonsh., 1856, II, 10, p. 80) :
2. Il y avait aussi Mirbeau, plein d'une effervescence amère et joyeuse, girouette au cœur chaud et aux yeux clairs, dont les jugements littéraires étaient fondés sur le plus ou moins de sympathie qu'inspiraient, à la ravissante, mais guerrière Madame Mirbeau, ses confrères des deux sexes.
L. DAUDET, Brév. journ., 1936, p. 35.

[Josquius]

I think it's a pretty interesting and not too well known fact.

It's a detail (French meaning) and not particulary relevant in a French context.
Nice try at a diversion (reading comprehension issues and not just in French for you I see).

Diversion?
Just what do you think I'm trying to divert from here?

They are idioms, and have been used accordingly for a long time. Any francophone would know that.
But then you and the French language... 

TLFI

http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8;s=150447705;

B.   Au fig. Personne versatile, qui change fréquemment d'opinion. Voilà, selon moi, comme on doit agir lorsque l'on tient au titre d'homme sérieux... Autrement on n'est qu'une girouette (BARRIÈRE, Faux bonsh., 1856, II, 10, p. 80) :
2. Il y avait aussi Mirbeau, plein d'une effervescence amère et joyeuse, girouette au cœur chaud et aux yeux clairs, dont les jugements littéraires étaient fondés sur le plus ou moins de sympathie qu'inspiraient, à la ravissante, mais guerrière Madame Mirbeau, ses confrères des deux sexes.
L. DAUDET, Brév. journ., 1936, p. 35.

As said that does seem to be a totally different thing to the political compass. We have this expression of "he changes like the wind" in English too. It carries no association of having views across the political spectrum. You could equally do this about whether you want to go out tonight or not.

And yes. French, much like tomatoes, doesn't really agree with me.

[Duque de Bragança]

Fairly extraordinary reports on Macron trying to form a "national unity government. Le Pen said that at her meeting with Macron yesterday, he mentioned the idea of a "national unity government" including the RN. Le Pen is opposed.

The leader of the Communists said that Macron also spoke about a "national unity government" with him which he seemed to envision including all parties - apparently the Communists would participate, but it would depend on what the government's program was.

Presumably he's trying to see if anyone bites so he can build a coalition, but this feels like where you end up if you don't think politics is about ideology and choices but instead just technocratic "governing". From bulwark against the extremes to trying to create a coalition with them in 5 years is a hell of a journey.

Nicely put.

I will believe it when I see it. So far LR does not want to play the useful idiot for Macron's clique (à la Liberal-Democrat with Cameron).
They would be the natural choice, but even an idiot can see it would spell their end as a separate political force.
As for the 5 years, in a year Macron could have new legislative elections but that's quite a gambit.

Communists, are allied with Mélenchon yet insisted to get their own parliamentary group, are not enough to form a coalition.

[Duque de Bragança]

And yes. French, much like tomatoes, doesn't really agree with me.

At last, we agree on something ! 

[Sheilbh]

Not seen any posts on the huge protests in France which seem quite serious.

But I saw this story about a woman being threatened with prosecution for insulting Macron on social media:
https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/03/30/heres-the-story-behind-the-trending-hashtag-macronordure-macrongarbage

Obviously there's also a lot of footage of very strong and unprovoked police violence across the protests - I'd note Macron had proposed laws criminalising recording footage of the police in the course of their duties (in 2020). Obviously the context is passing significant pension reforms using a constitutional tool that allows the government to impose legislation without a parliamentary vote (but instead allows for votes of no confidence in the government) which has been used a number of times in the nine months since the legislatives.

I think it's all adding up to a slightly worrying authoritarian turn in France (though it's not often covered like that given how Macron is coded) which is a particular concern because Macron's project has wiped out the mainstream left and right, but is now also presenting incredible challenges for any potential successors.

[viper37]

The law making it illegal to insult a President has always been there, apparently, but was abrogated by François Hollande.

Duque would know better than me.

[Duque de Bragança]

This is hardly new, more like a rehash of the "yellow vests" period.
Zupiter's authoritarian tendencies are showing up, again, see anti-terrorist "temporary" measures now part of the law corpus.

Given his very low legitimacy, no majority in the Assemblée Nationale, it's even worse.

[Sheilbh]

The law making it illegal to insult a President has always been there, apparently, but was abrogated by François Hollande.

The same goes for Turkish lese majeste laws, but I know what we'd think when they're used in Turkey. Especially with the context of a lot of police violence and using constitutional powers to force legislation through.