Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Jacob]

Yeah, that seems pretty effective.

[Sheilbh]

By the by - perfect example of one of the consistent criticisms of Corbyn on anti-semitism. He was never able to just condemn anti-semitism. He would always say something like "of course I condemn all forms of racism and bigotry" or "I condemn anti-semitism and all other forms of racism". Here, condemning Islamophobia and anti-semitism in response to what looks not unlike an attempted pogrom in Dagestan:

Jeremy Corbyn
@jeremycorbyn
I am disgusted by images of an antisemitic mob in Dagestan.
 
The global rise in antisemitism & Islamophobia is terrifying. Hatred does nothing to generate solidarity or bring about peace.

We cannot lose our common humanity. In times of darkness, it's all we have left.

Separately a very junior minister has been fired for calling for a ceasefire now as that goes against the cabinet/government line. The Labour line has evolved and there is more flexibility so I think a number of cabinet ministers and Sadiq Khan (among others) have called for an immediate ceasefire.

However they have just removed the whip from an MP for this line in a speech on Saturday: "We won't rest until we have justice, until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea can live in peaceful liberty. Free, free Palestine!"

Labour spokesman explained those comments were "deeply offensive, particularly at a time of rising anti-semitism which has left Jewish people fearful for their safety."

I'm not sure.

[Tamas]

I know this will not sound right, but it is hard to shake the feeling that these Labour councillors and others who attacked Starmer viciously for not being pro-Palestine enough appear Muslim first and British second. Thinking it forward even the expression "British Muslims" imply that (against intentions I am sure).

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure there is necessarily a "British" position as it were. On the councillors, some are Muslim, others are just on the Labour left - I mean that MP, for example, is Andy McDonald who is MP for Middlesbrough. The discomfort within Labour was far broader than just Muslim MPs, councillors etc. Starmer has shifted position a bit and also allowed for a bit more dissent within in the party - so I think about 1/4 of MPs and front benchers have called for an immediate ceasefire.

Same with the march more generally. I think there are some accounts on social media - especially Andy Ngo - who are really pushing the protests as basically just Muslims and they're all really scary. I think it's about the whole "Londonistan"/"no-go areas" thing that generates social media interest, especially for someone like Ngo. I don't think that's accurate. I think there's groups of radical Muslims who are loud and get a lot of attention (like Class War or black bloc anarchists).

But at this weekend's demonstration, for example, all the unions were attending and the presidents/general secretaries of many of them addressing the rally (Mich Lynch, Unison President etc). All the big unions were calling for members to attend Saturday's protest. Also speaking were most of Corbyn's shadow cabinet allies - he spoke, so did Andy McDonald, Diane Abbott, John McDonnell, Zahra Sultana, Richard Burgon - plus others like SNP MPs.

[Josquius]

I know this will not sound right, but it is hard to shake the feeling that these Labour councillors and others who attacked Starmer viciously for not being pro-Palestine enough appear Muslim first and British second. Thinking it forward even the expression "British Muslims" imply that (against intentions I am sure).

Whats particularly British second about Britain shouldn't condone bombing civilians?

Definitely fair to say they might feel stronger about this because the Palestinians are Muslims.
 But that's always a pretty sound policy i would say.

[Sheilbh]

Here's Andy McDonald's speech that got him suspended:
https://x.com/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1718304521326068019?s=20

Edit: And now Len McCluskey - until two years ago, Geeral Secretary of the largest union in the country - also in his time a very big player in Labour and strong Corbyn supporter in the unions. After noting that everyone would condemn the depicable and disgraceful actions of Hamas, pivots with "let me pose something to you":

LBC
@LBC
'Mossad is the most sophisticated security organisation in the world....are we really led to believe that they didn't know this was happening?'
 
Len McCluskey queries the Israeli intelligence agency's claim that they weren't aware of Hamas' planned attack to @AndrewMarr9

https://x.com/LBC/status/1719102747570491701?s=20

Again I think it's possible to entirely condemn Hamas, support a ceasefire and want a Palestinian state - but I think this sort of thing demonstrates exactly why it's so important for the left to re-build some of its firewalls to the left. And makes me more sympathetic to Starmer's approach.

[Tamas]

I'm not sure there is necessarily a "British" position as it were. On the councillors, some are Muslim, others are just on the Labour left - I mean that MP, for example, is Andy McDonald who is MP for Middlesbrough. The discomfort within Labour was far broader than just Muslim MPs, councillors etc. Starmer has shifted position a bit and also allowed for a bit more dissent within in the party - so I think about 1/4 of MPs and front benchers have called for an immediate ceasefire.

Same with the march more generally. I think there are some accounts on social media - especially Andy Ngo - who are really pushing the protests as basically just Muslims and they're all really scary. I think it's about the whole "Londonistan"/"no-go areas" thing that generates social media interest, especially for someone like Ngo. I don't think that's accurate. I think there's groups of radical Muslims who are loud and get a lot of attention (like Class War or black bloc anarchists).

But at this weekend's demonstration, for example, all the unions were attending and the presidents/general secretaries of many of them addressing the rally (Mich Lynch, Unison President etc). All the big unions were calling for members to attend Saturday's protest. Also speaking were most of Corbyn's shadow cabinet allies - he spoke, so did Andy McDonald, Diane Abbott, John McDonnell, Zahra Sultana, Richard Burgon - plus others like SNP MPs.

So it's a collection of Muslims and far left anti-semites. No, that's harsh, I am sure some of them are driven by the "America and their allies are imperialistic so anyone fighting them is the morally correct side" attitude that drive them being ambivalent on Russia.

[Josquius]

Here's Andy McDonald's speech that got him suspended:
https://x.com/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1718304521326068019?s=20

Edit: And now Len McCluskey - until two years ago, Geeral Secretary of the largest union in the country - also in his time a very big player in Labour and strong Corbyn supporter in the unions. After noting that everyone would condemn the depicable and disgraceful actions of Hamas, pivots with "let me pose something to you":

LBC
@LBC
'Mossad is the most sophisticated security organisation in the world....are we really led to believe that they didn't know this was happening?'
 
Len McCluskey queries the Israeli intelligence agency's claim that they weren't aware of Hamas' planned attack to @AndrewMarr9

https://x.com/LBC/status/1719102747570491701?s=20

Again I think it's possible to entirely condemn Hamas, support a ceasefire and want a Palestinian state - but I think this sort of thing demonstrates exactly why it's so important for the left to re-build some of its firewalls to the left. And makes me more sympathetic to Starmer's approach.

Sigh.
Honestly this sounds like a perfectly reasonable speech to me.
Is the issue here who else was speaking at this event?
Or just the Israeli-booster insistence the particular words from the river to the sea even in a very specifically OK context, due to their also being used by genocidal nuts, are forbidden?

 I get why Labour are taking the stance they are. Just follow the government line. Don't have an opinion. Avoid snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over something which is completely irrelevant to the majority of the population.
In light of the still recent anti-semitism stuff they can't afford to take any risks.
But still. Sigh.
I really hope we can move beyond this criticism of Israel=anti-semitism thing someday.

[Tamas]

It would sure help moving past the criticism of Israel = anti-semitism if such Labour people could just stop themselves from claiming Mossad knew about the attacks and let them happen. Nobody really asks them not to think that, just to not feel it strong enough to be unable to keep their mouth shut about it. As Sheilbh meticulously pointed out, Corbyn and his ilk just cannot, under any circumstance, condemn Palestinian terror without going "well yes but Israel".

[Josquius]

It would sure help moving past the criticism of Israel = anti-semitism if such Labour people could just stop themselves from claiming Mossad knew about the attacks and let them happen. Nobody really asks them not to think that, just to not feel it strong enough to be unable to keep their mouth shut about it. As Sheilbh meticulously pointed out, Corbyn and his ilk just cannot, under any circumstance, condemn Palestinian terror without going "well yes but Israel".

I don't see what's anti-semitic about this.
Given anti semites have a lot of conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories inherently anti-semitic?

Conspiracies about American intelligence for instance knowing about things they let happen are plentiful.
I seem to remember a month or so ago it being reported by very mainstream sources that Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel something big was coming?
Certainly the "Israel must have had an incline" line was common from not particularly anti-Israeli sources, with some, again not necessarily coming from an anti-semitic place, saying it plays into the government's hands given their recent actions so is kind of sus.
To say outright Mossad knew everything is going over the line of reasonable discussion into conspiracy theory but still not particularly anti semitic.

But anyway. Redundant as none of this was in the speech.

Fair comment on Corbyn and co but I do think that blows both ways with Starmer and co going "Yeah but Hamas...." whenever asked to condemn Israel.
As I say, probably a wise political action. Most people don't care and have a very black and white basic view with no room for nuance. Best to just stay in the government's shadow on this one.
But I get why some are irritated.

Thinking further I do wonder whether this is internal brutal Labour politics at play as with Driscoll, with an opportunity being taken to get rid of some people who were a bit too Corbyn friendly .

[Sheilbh]

I don't see what's anti-semitic about this.
Given anti semites have a lot of conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories inherently anti-semitic?

I think that is an argument that could be made actually. I low-key find conspiracy theories quite interesting but it is genuinely incredible how few there are that don't ultimately lead back to the Jews - off the top of my head the only big one that I don't think has a Jewish connection is JFK.

I think the discourse of conspiracy is a small group dictating events from the shadows for their own benefit. I think that rhymes quite precisely with anti-semitic discourse (at least since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) which means I think there is an in-built risk in conspiracy.

Conspiracies about American intelligence for instance knowing about things they let happen are plentiful.
I seem to remember a month or so ago it being reported by very mainstream sources that Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel something big was coming?
Certainly the "Israel must have had an incline" line was common from not particularly anti-Israeli sources, with some, again not necessarily coming from an anti-semitic place, saying it plays into the government's hands given their recent actions so is kind of sus.
To say outright Mossad knew everything is going over the line of reasonable discussion into conspiracy theory but still not particularly anti semitic.

So this depends on what is being implied. There is a difference between what is meant when we talk about advance knowledge of some sort or other.

What I've read and seen in the Israeli press is that the Netanyahu government was warned something was coming and because of their priors and hubris failed to take action that would have allowed Israel to stop the Hamas' attack earlier. That is a story of political failure of the sort you could see in any system - it's not a million miles from, say, the criticism of Johnson over covid.

If the argument is Israel or forces within Israel's government like Mossad knew what was coming and turned a blind eye because it would help them, or it would benefit Israel in some way. That's a conspiracy. I think it probably is a little anti-semitic with Mossad all powerful, but also the idea that even in moments of pain ultimately Jews are in some way responsible.

I think it is, incidentally, a particularly venerable line of English, left-wing anti-semitism - I think there is a similarity from Wells to Corbyn on this.

But anyway. Redundant as none of this was in the speech.

Sure.

I think in part I just want to flag that there is a broader part of anti-semitism in Britain and, perhaps, particularly on the left. Len McCluskey was an influential, important figure within the British left. I also think it is important to push back on the idea that the sole participants in pro-Palestine marches (most of whom are not anti-semitic - and it is a perfectly legitimate point of view) are immiigrants to the UK or that that's the sole cause of anti-semitism in the UK. I think that probably also goes for the rest of Europe.


More broadly though I'm not sure on Andy McDonald. I get Starmer's positioning politically - and I think, from his perspective, morally in trying to re-build Labour's connection with the Jewish community and feelinng from British Jews that Labour is a safe place for them.

Although I think standing by his LBC interview for 9 days, which he now says was a mistake in his comments isn't great. I don't agree with his comments in that interview. I understand why a lot of Labour were unhappy with them. Again purely politically I think they're possibly a little bit of a flag/something to watch in terms of him and his team responding to a crisis and ability to adjust/get ahead of an issue.

On anti-semitism more generally, as with other forms of bigotry, I think it is important to look at the effects. The effects right now are that a small minority community in Britain is feeling victimised and targeted. Their community events, including the bring them home vigil, require security. At certain points their schools have been advised to close. There is "pro-Palestian" (and I don't accept that it is) graffiti etc going up in Jewish areas. That is unacceptable and I don't accept that it is a natural and inevitable consequence of conflict in the Middle East or that the lives of British Jews should be in any way impacted by Israel's policies - to go full Corbyn, in the same way as I do not think British Muslims should be held responsible for Hamas or Iran or Saudi.

In relation to where there is a connection between the British Jewish community and Israel which is grief - and we are seeing denialism, conspiracy theories, as well as people within the pro-Palestine movement use the hang-glider as a symbol. For that reason I think it is important to allow Jewish people their grief and also on recognising what happened factually and that it was wrong. Similarly I get that "from the river to the sea" has many meanings for people who chant it, however, as Simon Schama demonstrates, it is experienced by many Jews as annihilationist call. I think that should be something that you take into account if you're on one of those demonstrations, even if it's not your intent. Similarly a chunk of a pro-Palestine march gathering outside a department store and chanting "Israel is a terrorist state" because that department store chain was, 100 years ago, founded by a Jew is anti-semitism.

As I say I don't think it is impossible or inconsistnt to stand really strongly with British Jews, to acknowledge the reality of Hamas' attack - as well as anything from having reservations about Israel to wanting an immediate ceasefire to basically having an anti-Zionist stance. I think those things can all be done together and I'd go further and say we should insist on them going together. That whatever your view on Israel or its policies that you don't express that in a way that makes your fellow citizens feel unsafe and that you don't indulge in denialism or conspiracy theories.

[Admiral Yi]

It's a natural, perhaps inescapable trait of human nature that we demonize those we criticize.  That makes sense to me as the source of anti-Semitism on the British left. 

[Sheilbh]

Perhaps. I mean I'm flagging this here because we have a thread on British politics and it's something I've banged on about for a while. But I don't think it's unique to the British left - I imagine you can find people making similar statements and similar issues in protests across Europe, or in Australia, say. I also think I've seen a few American writers observe that they thought the issue of left-wing anti-semitism was particular to the British left, and not present in America, but are re-evaluating given some of what's happening on campuses and on the radical side of the left in the US.

[Gups]

Meaniwhile, the Covid inquiry is absolutely bonkers. It's making The Thick of It look like a sober documentary. Boris saying that Covid is nature's way of dealing with old people and asking if the virus could be destroyed by blowing hot aitr up your nose.

Cummings on Health Secretary Matt Hancock

"In May 2020, he warned Johnson about the health secretary: "Hancock is unfit for this job. The incompetence, the constant lies, the obsession with media bullshit over doing his job. Still no fucking serious testing in care homes his uselessness is still killing God knows how many." By August 2020 Cummings told Johnson he was creating the perception that he was "happy to have useless fuckpigs in charge""

and on deputy cabinet secretary, Helen Macnamara

"In a WhatsApp message to the No 10 communications director, Lee Cain, he said he would "personally handcuff her and escort her from the building". He added: "I don't care how it is done but that woman must be out of our hair – we cannot keep dealing with this horrific meltdown of the British state while dodging stilettos from that cunt." Cummings suggested moving MacNamara to the communities department where she could build "millions of lovely houses". Cummings denied his comments were misogynistic. "I was much ruder about men," he told the inquiry"

[Jacob]

What is your assessment of Cumming's comments?

From my limited understanding, it sounds like he was correct about Hancock?