The Off Topic Topic

[Josquius]

Which is already done.
Somebody else gaining something isn't you losing something. The world isn't zero sum.

You lost opportunity cost.  You could have come out ahead with a different choice.

Which has nothing to do with someone else Having their debit cleared.

[Admiral Yi]

Which has nothing to do with someone else Having their debit cleared.

I just told you how it has something to do with someone else having their debt cleared: it causes future debt holders to reassess their expected outcomes when defaulting or not.

[Josquius]

Which has nothing to do with someone else Having their debit cleared.

I just told you how it has something to do with someone else having their debt cleared: it causes future debt holders to reassess their expected outcomes when defaulting or not.

That's something to consider on whether it's a wise policy decision or not.
But on the personal level those who don't benefit from a policy aren't being punished.

[Tamas]

Debt forgiveness means paying back your debts is a bad idea in the sense that it put you in a disadvantage. If you paid your debts back while others got theirs excused then you were a fool, conned into paying back money and interest you did not actually have to.

[Admiral Yi]

You have come out behind.  That is the essence of a punishment. 

[Josquius]

You have come out behind.  That is the essence of a punishment. 

No it isnt.
Punishment is your situation being damaged. Other peoples situation is irrelevant.
Sadly this sort of crabs in bucket mentality is hard to break amongst many.

[Tamas]

You have come out behind.  That is the essence of a punishment. 

No it isnt.
Punishment is your situation being damaged. Other peoples situation is irrelevant.
Sadly this sort of crabs in bucket mentality is hard to break amongst many.

OK so a scenario: I buy an expensive car and in general live it large instead of paying my mortgage and get into mortgage arrears while you continue to keep paying your mortgage instead of using that money to spend it on your family.

The government decides to bail me out, pay back my mortgage for me using your tax money. So at the end of it, I have had acquired assets and had a hell of a time, and now standing mortgage free, while you toiled away, kept paying your debt, and the common coffers you paid into are further depleted thanks to the debt forgiveness I received. Are you really saying this is just, and not a concern for running a society?

[Josquius]

You have come out behind.  That is the essence of a punishment. 

No it isnt.
Punishment is your situation being damaged. Other peoples situation is irrelevant.
Sadly this sort of crabs in bucket mentality is hard to break amongst many.

OK so a scenario: I buy an expensive car and in general live it large instead of paying my mortgage and get into mortgage arrears while you continue to keep paying your mortgage instead of using that money to spend it on your family.

The government decides to bail me out, pay back my mortgage for me using your tax money. So at the end of it, I have had acquired assets and had a hell of a time, and now standing mortgage free, while you toiled away, kept paying your debt, and the common coffers you paid into are further depleted thanks to the debt forgiveness I received. Are you really saying this is just, and not a concern for running a society?

That's still you receiving special treatment rather than me being punished.

Punishment would be me being pushed to -1. Not you being brought up from - 1 to 0.

The issue here isn't whether this is good or bad. It's calling it punishment.

[Tamas]

But you are getting to -1 by paying your debt. If debt foregivness a realistic scenario then the logical choice is to not pay your debt back.

Or look at it this way: if the state makes me pay X while making you pay 2X, you can both call this me being rewarded or you being punished, it is a matter of point of reference

[Josquius]

But you are getting to -1 by paying your debt. If debt foregivness a realistic scenario then the logical choice is to not pay your debt back.

Or look at it this way: if the state makes me pay X while making you pay 2X, you can both call this me being rewarded or you being punished, it is a matter of point of reference

Except debt forgiveness wasn't an option. I paid the debt as that was the standard at that time. This is done. You no longer facing crippling debt doesn't punish me in anyway. I suffer no loss from this.

Lots of people historically did things that today they wouldn't have to as the situation has changed - I have no time for this kind of the world can never become a better place as I had to suffer when I was young outlook.

Again you're going into arguments here on whether debt forgiveness is good or not rather than whether it's punishment.
Going off into the header topic IMO this isn't a simple black and white matter. focusing on the individuals to benefit from it and whinging about how others are somehow punished by not benefiting, is a factor in the key issue of how it will impact the future economy ("if debt will be just forgiven every 5 years then surely I should just build up a tonne now?") rather than a key issue in itself.
The idea of debt forgiveness should be a case by case one where usually it's of course not right but sometimes its broader benefits to the economy and keeping people out of poverty are worth it.

[Tamas]

I think in a lot of countries there are personal bankruptcy laws. So there is that.

But the moral hazard of debt forgiveness is a very real thing that should not be dismissed by latching on to the "punishment" word.

[Syt]

Inflation for August in Austria is at 7.4% compared to last year. Food, housing, energy, water have increased by ca. 10%.

[HVC]

Lebensmittel is the cutest word ever.

[Syt]

I guess a reasonably literal translation would be "means of/for living."

[Josquius]

Uber eats. Keeps wanting you to tip the delivery person.
It does this by setting a default of 15%.
Lol Wut. Who tips that much? And just for the delivery person too?
Considering the mark ups on the app I wonder how many tip at all.