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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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The Brain

Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2023, 11:20:14 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:37:43 AMBtw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?
Yes, Article 6 which includes the entire Turkish territory into NATO. And French Algeria.  :frog:

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Crazy_Ivan80

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 19, 2023, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:37:43 AMBtw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

for reference: since the artical number has already been mentioned

Article 6

"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."

grumbler

Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:37:43 AMBtw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

Quote"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."

nato.int
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

The Brain

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Josquius

Have to suspect the Algeria inclusion was quite the eye roller.
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HisMajestyBOB

Three lovely Prada points for HoI2 help

Jacob


Sheilbh

Quote from: Josquius on August 19, 2023, 03:54:30 PMHave to suspect the Algeria inclusion was quite the eye roller.
:lol: I mean Algeria was technically in the EEC until the 70s.

QuoteMore importantly they are sending Gripen according to media here.
Very good - sounds like the US is okaying their fighter jets I think from the Netherlands and Denmark too.
Let's bomb Russia!

OttoVonBismarck

Quote from: Jacob on August 18, 2023, 09:10:57 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 18, 2023, 08:36:31 PMIt's not impossible, just not politically viable.

What are the main political obstacles, do you reckon?

You need all NATO member states to agree, and most won't because the elected politicians in their countries won't go along with it. Once Ukraine is in, unless Russia immediately withdraws from Ukraine we are in a war with Russia when Ukraine invokes Article 5. The populace and the political leadership of NATO do not want a direct war with Russia.

Threviel

#15159
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2023, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: Threviel on August 19, 2023, 10:52:38 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:48:21 AMZelensky is in Sweden today. Sweden is sending its 13th aid package to Ukraine, and has asked the US to allow Swedish AMRAAMs to be sent.

And a deal was apparently struck where the Swedish government supports (unclear how) a CV90 factory in Ukraine.
More importantly they are sending Gripen according to media here.

No, Zelensky wants Gripen, but no (public) deal has been struck. I don't believe any Gripens will be sent until we join Nato. There's just too few of them.

Zanza

You are right, the article made it sound like there was agreement already.

Solmyr

Quote from: Josquius on August 19, 2023, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:37:43 AMBtw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

Good point. They'd have to have.
I guess Europe and Asia are by nature vague concepts. They presumably class Asia as beginning on the Turkish side of its old border with the ussr (despite most definitions having it somewhere north of there) ?

That definition would destroy any potential Georgian NATO aspirations.

Duque de Bragança

#15162
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 19, 2023, 04:56:19 PM
Quote from: Josquius on August 19, 2023, 03:54:30 PMHave to suspect the Algeria inclusion was quite the eye roller.
:lol: I mean Algeria was technically in the EEC until the 70s.

'70s, really? More like 1962. Retroactive effect to 1957? Perhaps.

For NATO purposes, ditto.

France kept some bases for nuclear bomb research in the south for 4 or 5 years more, but Nato was not involved. Mers-el-Kebir facilities had been used by NATO till 1958, but then solely by France, before independence.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 20, 2023, 03:39:08 AM'70s, really? More like 1962. Retroactive effect to 1957? Perhaps.

For NATO purposes, ditto.
After 1962 Algeria was immediately treated as a third country in relation to customs and their citizens, but it was legally unclear what the basis for that was.

It's not until the mid-70s that there's a treaty that formally excludes Algeria from the EEC - again it feels like you wouldn't have that if it wasn't at least arguable that purely legally they should have remained a member after 62.

The provisions on parts of a member state leaving (eg Scotland) are relatively new. Most European colonies weren't impacted because they were dealt with in Annexes to the Treaty of Rome so only bits of the EEC framework applied to them. Algeria is the exception as it was fully part of the EEC because it was France - and, as Monnet put it, with Algeria the centre of Europe is the Med, without it's the Rhine.
Let's bomb Russia!

Tonitrus

Quote from: Solmyr on August 20, 2023, 01:20:29 AM
Quote from: Josquius on August 19, 2023, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2023, 10:37:43 AMBtw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

Good point. They'd have to have.
I guess Europe and Asia are by nature vague concepts. They presumably class Asia as beginning on the Turkish side of its old border with the ussr (despite most definitions having it somewhere north of there) ?

That definition would destroy any potential Georgian NATO aspirations.


I would think that if NATO were to take in Georgia, they'd be smart enough to add in/amend an article to include their territory under Article 5.  Since both actions would require unanimous votes, it would just happen concurrently.