Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[crazy canuck]

There is zero consistency in what Russia says or claims.

The Russian Federation has numerous times acknowledged Ukrainian independence and borders - most notably the Budapest Memorandum.  But you only have to go to Putin's own essay "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians", or to watch Russian state-controlled media, to tell that Russia also asserts that Ukrainian independence was a mistake.

Who said the Russian claims needed to be consistent in anyway?  It's like you guys have your head in the sand thinking Russia doesn't claim Ukraine as its own territory because that would just be wrong. There's a war going on.

[Barrister]

There is zero consistency in what Russia says or claims.

The Russian Federation has numerous times acknowledged Ukrainian independence and borders - most notably the Budapest Memorandum.  But you only have to go to Putin's own essay "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians", or to watch Russian state-controlled media, to tell that Russia also asserts that Ukrainian independence was a mistake.

Who said the Russian claims needed to be consistent in anyway?  It's like you guys have your head in the sand thinking Russia doesn't claim Ukraine as its own territory because that would just be wrong. There's a war going on.

WTF CC.  Look who you are talking to.  I absolutely don't have my head in the sand about Russia.  They're monsters and we need to fully fund Ukraine in it's existential war with Russia.  Putin has made it quite clear he wants to erase Ukraine from the map and from all of history.

[mongers]

Poland holds a large military parade to mark victory over the Soviets in 1920:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-66515585

Maybe Putin will be jealous of those serried ranks of tanks.

[Sheilbh]

Poland is also more than doubling their defence budget and are working with German, British, French and South Korean defence companies to manufacture different bits of kit in Poland, I assume to ensure security of supply by having multiple partners (and domestic manufacturing).

They're turning into a CEE France.

And it all seems pretty justified and positive for Europe.

[Tamas]

Yeah it would be better if it wasn't done by PiS but at least they are not as destructive a cancer in Europe as Orban is.

[crazy canuck]

There is zero consistency in what Russia says or claims.

The Russian Federation has numerous times acknowledged Ukrainian independence and borders - most notably the Budapest Memorandum.  But you only have to go to Putin's own essay "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians", or to watch Russian state-controlled media, to tell that Russia also asserts that Ukrainian independence was a mistake.

Who said the Russian claims needed to be consistent in anyway?  It's like you guys have your head in the sand thinking Russia doesn't claim Ukraine as its own territory because that would just be wrong. There's a war going on.

WTF CC.  Look who you are talking to.  I absolutely don't have my head in the sand about Russia.  They're monsters and we need to fully fund Ukraine in it's existential war with Russia.  Putin has made it quite clear he wants to erase Ukraine from the map and from all of history.

You are missing the point entirely.  I have no idea how you could possibly think I would think otherwise.

I said that Putin has claimed Ukraine.  You and Valmy essentially said, he has no valid claim.  Well, duh!  But that does not mean Putin has not claimed the Ukraine.

[Josquius]

He has both claimed Ukraine due to nutty far right reasoning and insisted he recognises Ukraines independence and just wants to save them from nazis. This is the Russian way.

[Jacob]

Germany to provide cutting edge reconnaissance drones to Ukraine.

[Zanza]

Russia's military casualties, the officials said, are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which the officials put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.

But Russians outnumber Ukrainians on the battlefield almost three to one, and Russia has a larger population from which to replenish its ranks.

Ukraine has around 500,000 troops, including active-duty, reserve and paramilitary troops, according to analysts. By contrast, Russia has almost triple that number, with 1,330,000 active-duty, reserve and paramilitary troops — most of the latter from the Wagner Group.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html?smid=tw-share

[mongers]

Russia's military casualties, the officials said, are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which the officials put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.

But Russians outnumber Ukrainians on the battlefield almost three to one, and Russia has a larger population from which to replenish its ranks.

Ukraine has around 500,000 troops, including active-duty, reserve and paramilitary troops, according to analysts. By contrast, Russia has almost triple that number, with 1,330,000 active-duty, reserve and paramilitary troops — most of the latter from the Wagner Group.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html?smid=tw-share

It's approaching the Iran-Iraq war, though perhaps nearly one magnitude less in numbers, so far.

[Jacob]

Interesting perspective on one way to end the war in Ukraine without beating Putin. I'd be curious to hear languish's take on this: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/08/18/how-to-end-ukraine-war-00111752

[DGuller]

I've asked in the past why it's not possible to admit Ukraine to NATO while excepting the territories not controlled by it.  There are several members of NATO already who were admitted with exceptions:  India didn't trigger Article 5 by invading Goa.  We can even salami slice Russian-occupied territory, and add it to NATO as they become liberated.  Russia is not the only one who can play that game.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's not impossible, just not politically viable.

[Jacob]

It's not impossible, just not politically viable.

What are the main political obstacles, do you reckon?

[HVC]

Entering a military alliance with a country actively at war seems like a bad idea to me.