The Rowling vs. Trans People Hijack

[viper37]

So yeah probably separating the trans from the cis women might make sense in prison. Or maybe just separating the violent ones from the general population in general.

That's the sensible solution activists will screen bloody murder about.

The whole notion that trans people are the ones committing violence and assault on the straight people seems so out of wack with reality. It seems like people are inventing fantasy scenarios about things that might happen and then wanting policy to be based around that.

Some trans people can be violent.  Like some humans.
It's not a reason to discriminate against all trans in all avenues of life.
It's a reason to discriminate in some particular places where there are vulnerable people.  And I'm not talking about some stupid bathroom, that's an irrational fear here.

But if a women shelter says they have problems, the last thing they should have, is more problems in the form of trans activists protesting in front of their place.

I know I did this myself with the sports thing. I know athletes are crazy people willing to do whatever in order to win and I dreamed up these hypothetically hypercompetitive male athletes IDing as women so they could win. But it never really happened.

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/how-one-swimmer-became-the-focus-of-a-debate-about-trans-athletes

That they IDed as a woman specifically to win or not is irrelevant. Biology gives them an unfair advantage over other woman and it isn't fair, no more than using specific performance enhancing drugs.

[Admiral Yi]

I've never considered the bathroom thing to be about security from sexual assault but rather about awkwardness and tension.  I would feel kind of weird if a woman walked in while I was taking a dump.

[viper37]

I've never considered the bathroom thing to be about security from sexual assault but rather about awkwardness and tension.  I would feel kind of weird if a woman walked in while I was taking a dump.

If I am in a cabinet, I couldn't care less whose on the other side.
If it's a single space toilet, I would assume there are locks on the the doors...  If there are not, man or woman, I would be extremely uncomfortable with any one walking in while I was taking in a dump...

[Tamas]

The reducing of the female safe space argument to using public toilets is a retarded thing that should be dropped. It's not like currently there are security guards or genetic sensors or whatever guarding women's toilets from predatory men.

[The Brain]

AFAIK unisex bathrooms work reasonably well. Sure, Lavrov thinks they're inhuman, but his opinions have generally been found wanting.

[Josquius]

Sure there are more successfull examples.  Large swathes of Europe were made virtually Jew free because they were gassed.  Little odd ethnicities like the Wends disappeared because their self identification got submerged into the greater whole.

If I'm missing your point please tell me what your point is.

Hopefully it will be a point that connects the word "woman" and trans women ceasing to exist in some sort of causal relationship.

You can attack trans peoples existence without literally trying to kill people.

So yeah probably separating the trans from the cis women might make sense in prison. Or maybe just separating the violent ones from the general population in general.

That's the sensible solution activists will screen bloody murder about.

Not really.  Those who favour trans rights are the ones supporting science and rational solutions.
Its the TERFs screaming bloody murder if trans people are given an inch.

But if a women shelter says they have problems, the last thing they should have, is more problems in the form of trans activists protesting in front of their place.

Thats literally the complete opposite of what happens. Its the anti-trans activists protesting and hassling people.

I know I did this myself with the sports thing. I know athletes are crazy people willing to do whatever in order to win and I dreamed up these hypothetically hypercompetitive male athletes IDing as women so they could win. But it never really happened.
https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/how-one-swimmer-became-the-focus-of-a-debate-about-trans-athletes

This is an actual trans person who is into swimming. Not a male swimmer who signed up for the female events.

That they IDed as a woman specifically to win or not is irrelevant. Biology gives them an unfair advantage over other woman and it isn't fair, no more than using specific performance enhancing drugs.

So let sports governing bodies do the job they've always been doing and define who is a woman based on biology. Don't just push a blanket no trans people allowed ban.

[Admiral Yi]

You can attack trans peoples existence without literally trying to kill people.

I still don't get your point.  And we started this subconversation when you said their existence was *threatened.*  If that means something other than ceasing to exist, please lay it out for me.

[Josquius]

You can attack trans peoples existence without literally trying to kill people.

I still don't get your point.  And we started this subconversation when you said their existence was *threatened.*  If that means something other than ceasing to exist, please lay it out for me.

You were the first person to mention threatening trans peoples right to exist. I just replied to you. Explain what you meant by this use of language if its nothing that I've said.

[Admiral Yi]

You were the first person to mention threatening trans peoples right to exist. I just replied to you. Explain what you meant by this use of language if its nothing that I've said.

You're right.  Here's what I was responding to.

"That trans rights are not up for debate I would say in the view of most progressive people means their fundamental rights. They have the right to exist and live their lives as women."

So the agreeable modification of my position is obviously, trans women's right to exist is not up for debate.

The less accomodating modification is do you think anyone is denying their right to exist?

[Josquius]

You were the first person to mention threatening trans peoples right to exist. I just replied to you. Explain what you meant by this use of language if its nothing that I've said.

You're right.  Here's what I was responding to.

"That trans rights are not up for debate I would say in the view of most progressive people means their fundamental rights. They have the right to exist and live their lives as women."

So the agreeable modification of my position is obviously, trans women's right to exist is not up for debate.

The less accomodating modification is do you think anyone is denying their right to exist?

.
This is where the analogy comes in. Stuff like the kurds in Turkey in the mid 20th century. They weren't being actively killed. But they were being told a fundamental part of their identity was invalid and they were really something else.
Deny trans women are women and its the same sort of thing. Sure they can keep living their life as men in dresses... But that's not who they are.

This is effectively what the terfs and their push for second tier female status for trans people are doing. Seeking to strip trans women (trans guys exist too let's remember. Oddly they don't receive such hate) of womenhood.

I've mentioned before the apartheid analogy also fits in places.

[grumbler]

That they IDed as a woman specifically to win or not is irrelevant. Biology gives them an unfair advantage over other woman and it isn't fair, no more than using specific performance enhancing drugs.

This is not an argument that has ever held weigh with me.  Biology gives any given athlete an unfair advantage over some other athletes.  Athletes learn to live with that very early in their careers, or they stop being athletes.

[Barrister]

That they IDed as a woman specifically to win or not is irrelevant. Biology gives them an unfair advantage over other woman and it isn't fair, no more than using specific performance enhancing drugs.

This is not an argument that has ever held weigh with me.  Biology gives any given athlete an unfair advantage over some other athletes.  Athletes learn to live with that very early in their careers, or they stop being athletes.

I mean that is certainly one way to look at things.

But that would seem to be contrary to the very idea of having separate women's sports.  Take, for example, the 100m dash.  The men's world record is 9.58 seconds.  The women's record is 10.49 seconds, almost a full second slower.  And you can find in almost every sport that at the elite end men are bigger, faster and stronger.

So if your approach is just "biology just gives some people an unfair advantage" it seems to me that in wide swaths of sports you're telling women they won't be able to compete.  Because 10.49 seconds in the 100m dash, the fastest a woman has ever gone, isn't fast enough to even qualify under the men's standards.

[Admiral Yi]

You were the first person to mention threatening trans peoples right to exist. I just replied to you. Explain what you meant by this use of language if its nothing that I've said.

You're right.  Here's what I was responding to.

"That trans rights are not up for debate I would say in the view of most progressive people means their fundamental rights. They have the right to exist and live their lives as women."

So the agreeable modification of my position is obviously, trans women's right to exist is not up for debate.

The less accomodating modification is do you think anyone is denying their right to exist?

.
This is where the analogy comes in. Stuff like the kurds in Turkey in the mid 20th century. They weren't being actively killed. But they were being told a fundamental part of their identity was invalid and they were really something else.
Deny trans women are women and its the same sort of thing. Sure they can keep living their life as men in dresses... But that's not who they are.

This is effectively what the terfs and their push for second tier female status for trans people are doing. Seeking to strip trans women (trans guys exist too let's remember. Oddly they don't receive such hate) of womenhood.

I've mentioned before the apartheid analogy also fits in places.

If I tell you that you are not a Northerner you do not cease to exist.  Same with the Turks and Kurds.  If the Turkish government tells Kurds they are really Mountain Turks they can still continue to eat Kurdish food, dress in Kurdish dress, speak Kurdish etc.  Simply telling them that a part of their identity is invalid won't change their identity, unless they happen to agree. 

My mom grew up in Korea under Japanese colonialism.  The Japanese had a program to assimilate Koreans into Japanese.  Schools were only taught in Japanese, everyone was required to adopt a Japanese style name.  I daresay if they had had another couple decades for the job they would have succeeded and Korean identity would have ceased to exist.  But the analogy for this part in the transexual debate doesn't exist.  Well, there are probably some bible thumping kooks in West Virginia who think all transexuals should be "deprogrammed" but within the framework of the debate we're having here on Languish they are irrelevant.  JK Rowling hasn't spoken in favor of forced deprogramming.

Long story short, existence is straw man.

[frunk]

My mom grew up in Korea under Japanese colonialism.  The Japanese had a program to assimilate Koreans into Japanese.  Schools were only taught in Japanese, everyone was required to adopt a Japanese style name.  I daresay if they had had another couple decades for the job they would have succeeded and Korean identity would have ceased to exist.  But the analogy for this part in the transexual debate doesn't exist.  Well, there are probably some bible thumping kooks in West Virginia who think all transexuals should be "deprogrammed" but within the framework of the debate we're having here on Languish they are irrelevant.  JK Rowling hasn't spoken in favor of forced deprogramming.

At CPAC just recently there was an explicit call for Trans people to be eradicated from public life.  Laws in Florida are being advanced that would allow Trans teens to be taken away from their parents, plus things like Don't Say Gay are explicit attempts to suppress or eliminate these individuals.  It isn't just the kooks in the hills, it's the kooks that are making policy in the Republican Party.

[Barrister]

My mom grew up in Korea under Japanese colonialism.  The Japanese had a program to assimilate Koreans into Japanese.  Schools were only taught in Japanese, everyone was required to adopt a Japanese style name.  I daresay if they had had another couple decades for the job they would have succeeded and Korean identity would have ceased to exist.  But the analogy for this part in the transexual debate doesn't exist.  Well, there are probably some bible thumping kooks in West Virginia who think all transexuals should be "deprogrammed" but within the framework of the debate we're having here on Languish they are irrelevant.  JK Rowling hasn't spoken in favor of forced deprogramming.

At CPAC just recently there was an explicit call for Trans people to be eradicated from public life.  Laws in Florida are being advanced that would allow Trans teens to be taken away from their parents, plus things like Don't Say Gay are explicit attempts to suppress or eliminate these individuals.  It isn't just the kooks in the hills, it's the kooks that are making policy in the Republican Party.

CPAC dude clarified that he wanted "trans ideology" eradicated from public life - not that he was calling for trans people to be killed.  He didn't back down from "eradicated" though.