The Rowling vs. Trans People Hijack

[Barrister]

The trouble I see there is just what are you wanting to debate.

Trans women are women and there is no room for debate on this fact is absolutely the case.

But do you think this means anyone who claims to be trans must be taken totally at face value?

Is the debate you want to have about fringe cases like how trans criminals are dealt with?

Is it about the eternal struggle of sports governing bodies to determine who is a woman?

That trans rights are not up for debate I would say in the view of most progressive people means their fundamental rights. They have the right to exist and live their lives as women.
When you get people speaking about trans rights as a debate it has huge connotations of stuff like "the Jewish question".

This is not to say however there's not room for discussion around more specific fringe issues and how exactly to reach a conclusion that is better for all.
Again however even here there is a huge tendency for people to stomp into these questions presenting them as the trans debate whit large and very often with goals that absolutely do not consider the wellbeing of trans people.

So what you're describing is pretty much what Rowling believes.  She repeats numerous times that trans people should live their lives as they want to live and their existence is not up for debate.

But yes you've hit the hotpoint issues: self-ID, sports, prisons, women's shelters.  It's a question of when do the rights of transwomen get their right to live as women, run into conflict with the right of cis women get to live their lives as women.

Oh - the other hot button issue is youth transition.  Not whether it should happen at all, but when and in what circumstances.

If you're curious - take a listen to the Podcast.  It is well done.  Like I said it takes until Episode 4 to get to the "trans stuff", but if you have the time and are interested in the topic you might find it interesting, even if you don't agree in the end.

[Admiral Yi]

Everything is up for debate.

The oddest part of your line Squeeze (and I've heard it elsewhere) is that this somehow threatens their right to exist. 

I personally think a person who has started hormone treatments, or started dressing like a woman, or gotten a boob job is a man transitioning to a woman.  And once they get the operation they're a woman.

Have any trans women ceased to exist because I posted that?  If I think this way will I inevitably go out and start killing trans women?

[Sheilbh]

So what you're describing is pretty much what Rowling believes.  She repeats numerous times that trans people should live their lives as they want to live and their existence is not up for debate.

But yes you've hit the hotpoint issues: self-ID, sports, prisons, women's shelters.  It's a question of when do the rights of transwomen get their right to live as women, run into conflict with the right of cis women get to live their lives as women.

Yeah I've thought this too that on the actual issues what Jos says is basically the same as a "gender critical" feminist.

Oh - the other hot button issue is youth transition.  Not whether it should happen at all, but when and in what circumstances.

Yes and also crucially what treatment options should be available. I don't think that issue is going away - the healthcare systems in Australia, New Zealand, Finland, France, Sweden and England have all done some form of systematic review (or said there is very limited evidence) and restricted treatments like puberty blockers.

In that context I think it's quite difficult to frame it as "the science is settled" and if that's the case there will be differing views and a desperate need for research.

[viper37]

If I think this way will I inevitably go out and start killing trans women?

You are one step closer...

I do no like how activists try to reinvent biology like it's just another theory.  It seems eerily similar on the debates about creationism two decades ago: "evolution is just another theory".

[Josquius]

So what you're describing is pretty much what Rowling believes.  She repeats numerous times that trans people should live their lives as they want to live and their existence is not up for debate.

Thats not the way the evidence points as much as she has said this once or twice.
I love trans women and totally supper their right to exist... But they're not women and by the way I support this group who very definitely don't want trans people to exist....
As said totally get why trans people aren't big on jk.

But yes you've hit the hotpoint issues: self-ID, sports, prisons, women's shelters.  It's a question of when do the rights of transwomen get their right to live as women, run into conflict with the right of cis women get to live their lives as women.

Never
Self ID... Well if I declare myself a woman and burst into the women's changing room then that's not a trans woman coming into conflict with cis women. It's a nutty probably predatory guy looking to exploit what he perceives as a loop hole. Trans women are women. Determining who is a trans woman is a more complex question.

The sports issue long predates transsexuals being a hot topic and has its most interesting cases completely unrelated to trans people. Its a challenge that needs to be solved even if trans people didn't exist.
As said before it's sad that politicians have waded in to play culture wars and take cheap shots at trans people.

[Barrister]

Self ID... Well if I declare myself a woman and burst into the women's changing room then that's not a trans woman coming into conflict with cis women. It's a nutty probably predatory guy looking to exploit what he perceives as a loop hole. Trans women are women. Determining who is a trans woman is a more complex question.

The sports issue long predates transsexuals being a hot topic and has its most interesting cases completely unrelated to trans people. Its a challenge that needs to be solved even if trans people didn't exist.
As said before it's sad that politicians have waded in to play culture wars and take cheap shots at trans people.

Be careful - the term "transsexual" is not the preferred term, and might even be considered transphobic.

As for self-id (and for Yi's comment that you're only a true trans woman if you get bottom surgery) - that's not the trans activist position.  Number one what your genitals are doesn't matter.  And to be fair a lot of trans women who have lived for years as women still have their penises.

But more than that - they're against "gatekeeping".  Which is sort of understandable.  The idea that someone feels like they've suffered from gender dysphoria for years, but then need some doctor to sign off on the feelings they've had for years before it can be acknowledged must feel quite demeaning.  But the flip-side (and what trans activists support) is self-ID.  You are what you say you are, and you don't need anyone's approval to transition.

Which makes a certain amount of sense - but you do then leave the door open for the admittedly very small, but non-zero, number of predators and perverts to take advantage of.

[Valmy]

Self ID... Well if I declare myself a woman and burst into the women's changing room then that's not a trans woman coming into conflict with cis women. It's a nutty probably predatory guy looking to exploit what he perceives as a loop hole.

I don't see how this is a loophole. IDing as a woman doesn't make it any less illegal to predate on people. And if you are going to do that, doing it in a very public place like a bathroom or changing room seems like a stupid idea.

Children change in the men's dressing room sometimes and how often do you hear about some pedophile grabbing a kid they don't know in a changing room? It never happens. A pedophile grooms the kid first, builds up trust, and then gets them alone. Likewise I don't think some guy is going to pretend to be trans, sneak into a woman's changing room, and just grab some random woman. And if he did, well, he is almost certainly going to be caught and him claiming falsely that he IDs as a woman is not some loophole to get him out of anything.

Now prison I can kind of see. Since you are literally a captive audience. But even there I don't know man. It kind of seems like the trans women would be the ones more likely to be brutalized. Though it does seem like a thing where men sure to be facing long prison time suddenly decide to ID as women probably thinking woman's prison would be an easier place to do time. So yeah probably separating the trans from the cis women might make sense in prison. Or maybe just separating the violent ones from the general population in general.

The whole notion that trans people are the ones committing violence and assault on the straight people seems so out of wack with reality. It seems like people are inventing fantasy scenarios about things that might happen and then wanting policy to be based around that.

I know I did this myself with the sports thing. I know athletes are crazy people willing to do whatever in order to win and I dreamed up these hypothetically hypercompetitive male athletes IDing as women so they could win. But it never really happened. Apparently there are some lines even a demographic known to lie, cheat, steal, bribe, and take dangerous drugs to win won't cross. So I guess that has made me a little skeptical about the reality of other hypothetical scenarios that haven't really happened.

But hey if it is demonstrated this is, in fact, a problem I can be persuaded.

[Valmy]

Which makes a certain amount of sense - but you do then leave the door open for the admittedly very small, but non-zero, number of predators and perverts to take advantage of.

I guess my question is: in what way could they theoretically take advantage of it? I presume it is illegal to stare at women and masturbate in a woman's changing room even if you are a cis woman.

[Josquius]

Yeah I've thought this too that on the actual issues what Jos says is basically the same as a "gender critical" feminist.

I do have a lot of sympathy with the core of 'gender critical' ideas- that gender shouldn't be a thing that exists, you should be free to wear whatever you want, identify however you want, wear makeup if you want, etc.... and nobody should give a shit what you've got in your pants.
Where I draw the line is with their thoughts that its somehow the fault of trans people that the world is some way off this stage of enlightenment and they choose the gender that they're more comfortable with.

Everything is up for debate.

The oddest part of your line Squeeze (and I've heard it elsewhere) is that this somehow threatens their right to exist.

I personally think a person who has started hormone treatments, or started dressing like a woman, or gotten a boob job is a man transitioning to a woman.  And once they get the operation they're a woman.

Have any trans women ceased to exist because I posted that?  If I think this way will I inevitably go out and start killing trans women?

I've thought about this in the past.
The trouble is its just putting too much focus on the penis.
Far from my area of interest but as I understand it there's a wide variety of personal views of that area in the trans community, it seen as very much up to individuals to make the decision.
They range from those who though they firmly identify as women see their dick as a natural part of themselves and have no issue using it as a man would, through to those who see it as a horrible growth that they can't bare to even look at, some even going into self-mutilation over it, and everything in between.
This penis focus is something transphobes tend to be really keen on though. A weird frequently raised concern of theirs is about trans people impregnating a woman- because its not like rape is a horrible enough thing, this super minor and easily fixable physical problem in the grand scope of things has to be added on top.
As I've heard it though even amongst those trans women who have no interest in bottom surgery they often end up effectively chemically castrated via hormones.

Anyway. As to whether this stuff threatens trans peoples right to exist... well look to ethnic cleansing for an analogy. Kurds aren't a real thing they're just mountain kurds- trans women aren't a real thing they're just men in dresses. Its not like the Kurds being treat this way popped out of existence. But the Turkish government did attempt to erase a fundamental part of their identity. Helps not to think so litereally.

Be careful - the term "transsexual" is not the preferred term, and might even be considered transphobic.

The change from transexual to transgender is a curious one. I do wonder where that push came from.

As for self-id (and for Yi's comment that you're only a true trans woman if you get bottom surgery) - that's not the trans activist position.  Number one what your genitals are doesn't matter.  And to be fair a lot of trans women who have lived for years as women still have their penises.

But more than that - they're against "gatekeeping".  Which is sort of understandable.  The idea that someone feels like they've suffered from gender dysphoria for years, but then need some doctor to sign off on the feelings they've had for years before it can be acknowledged must feel quite demeaning.  But the flip-side (and what trans activists support) is self-ID.  You are what you say you are, and you don't need anyone's approval to transition.

Its not a binary however. That a lot of trans rights supporters push for peoples right to self identify doesn't mean, as the transphobes believe, that they support any random guy just waking up and going "Today I feel like I'm a woman, I'm off to exploit this".

Self ID... Well if I declare myself a woman and burst into the women's changing room then that's not a trans woman coming into conflict with cis women. It's a nutty probably predatory guy looking to exploit what he perceives as a loop hole.

I don't see how this is a loophole. IDing as a woman doesn't make it any less illegal to predate on people. And if you are going to do that, doing it in a very public place like a bathroom or changing room seems like a stupid idea.

Children change in the men's dressing room sometimes and how often do you hear about some pedophile grabbing a kid they don't know in a changing room? It never happens. A pedophile grooms the kid first, builds up trust, and then gets them alone. Likewise I don't think some guy is going to pretend to be trans, sneak into a woman's changing room, and just grab some random woman. And if he did, well, he is almost certainly going to be caught and him claiming falsely that he IDs as a woman is not some loophole to get him out of anything.

The whole notion that trans people are the ones committing violence and assault on the straight people seems so out of wack with reality. It seems like people are inventing fantasy scenarios about things that might happen and then wanting policy to be based around that.

I know I did this myself with the sports thing. I know athletes are crazy people willing to do whatever in order to win and I dreamed up these hypothetically hypercompetitive male athletes IDing as women so they could win. But it never really happened. Apparently there are some lines even a demographic known to lie, cheat, steal, bribe, and take dangerous drugs to win won't cross. So I guess that has made me a little skeptical about the reality of other hypothetical scenarios that haven't really happened.

But hey if it is demonstrated this is, in fact, a problem I can be persuaded.
[/quote]

Hence 'perceived'.
My point is that its a fake problem.
Its really bizarre as with the way things are its not like the female sign is a magic sigil keeping men out. Just look at this recent story:
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/face-derby-man-banned-every-8181650

If this guy started shouting that he's actually a woman...well thats not going to change anything at all.

Now prison I can kind of see. Since you are literally a captive audience. But even there I don't know man. It kind of seems like the trans women would be the ones more likely to be brutalized. Though it does seem like a thing where men sure to be facing long prison time suddenly decide to ID as women probably thinking woman's prison would be an easier place to do time. So yeah probably separating the trans from the cis women might make sense in prison. Or maybe just separating the violent ones from the general population in general.

Prison is a place where a lot of rights are already suspended and things are pretty weird so it is quite fair here that a lot of the power to self identify is taken out of the persons hands (though absolutely not entirely.)

Data does indeed show trans people are far more likely to be victims there.
The current system for trans people in prisons works fine that I can see. Deal with it on a case by case basis. Incidents are at a rate of 1 in 2 years.
Its interesting how transphobes seem to be completely fail to grasp that regular cis gay and lesbian sex criminals are a thing. The prison service knows this and has procedures.

[Tamas]

I do have a lot of sympathy with the core of 'gender critical' ideas- that gender shouldn't be a thing that exists, you should be free to wear whatever you want, identify however you want, wear makeup if you want, etc.... and nobody should give a shit what you've got in your pants.
Where I draw the line is with their thoughts that its somehow the fault of trans people that the world is some way off this stage of enlightenment and they choose the gender that they're more comfortable with.

I think that's what lies at the core of my confusion/reservations as well.

It's a tricky situation. Transgender people's right to be just whoever they want to be (within the limits of not hurting others, as is the case with everyone) and express themselves the way they want must be protected.

But I do think what we are (or supposed to be) protecting does go against eliminating the social constraints of gender (and because of that, sex).

If we say that somebody "presents" as X gender, then necessarily we are saying that there are specific conditions and attributes which define that given gender. Clothing, hair style, mannerism, whatever. If gender is not defined by sex, then it is defined by one of those other things.

Which of course clearly means that you cannot/not supposed to wear certain things or behave in a certain way if you want to present as a certain gender.

I appreciate that my brain not being able to resolve the logical collision between that and gender equality really shouldn't prevent transgenders from being left alone to be transgenders.

[Admiral Yi]

As for self-id (and for Yi's comment that you're only a true trans woman if you get bottom surgery) - that's not the trans activist position.

That's not exactly what I said.  I said the operation is the point when they move from trans woman to woman woman.

[Admiral Yi]

Anyway. As to whether this stuff threatens trans peoples right to exist... well look to ethnic cleansing for an analogy. Kurds aren't a real thing they're just mountain kurds- trans women aren't a real thing they're just men in dresses. Its not like the Kurds being treat this way popped out of existence. But the Turkish government did attempt to erase a fundamental part of their identity. Helps not to think so litereally.

But Kurds did not cease to exist.  There are still people who self identify as Kurds.

[Josquius]

Anyway. As to whether this stuff threatens trans peoples right to exist... well look to ethnic cleansing for an analogy. Kurds aren't a real thing they're just mountain kurds- trans women aren't a real thing they're just men in dresses. Its not like the Kurds being treat this way popped out of existence. But the Turkish government did attempt to erase a fundamental part of their identity. Helps not to think so litereally.

But Kurds did not cease to exist.  There are still people who self identify as Kurds.

Not for want of the turkish governments efforts. Likewise no matter how harsh anti trans laws get trans people will hang on in some capacity.
There's plenty of examples of historic ethnic cleansing that were far more succesful.
You're missing the point here.

[Admiral Yi]

Not for want of the turkish governments efforts. Likewise no matter how harsh anti trans laws get trans people will hang on in some capacity.
There's plenty of examples of historic ethnic cleansing that were far more succesful.
You're missing the point here.

Sure there are more successfull examples.  Large swathes of Europe were made virtually Jew free because they were gassed.  Little odd ethnicities like the Wends disappeared because their self identification got submerged into the greater whole.

If I'm missing your point please tell me what your point is.

Hopefully it will be a point that connects the word "woman" and trans women ceasing to exist in some sort of causal relationship.

[Sheilbh]

But again in the UK, as far as I'm aware, there aren't actually any proposed anti-trans laws.

The proposed new laws and debate are about moving from getting a gender recognition certificate following a panel hearing and with evidence of having lived in your affirmed gender for two years and a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, to a purely administrative/paperwork system that can be made after six months of living in your affirmed gender.

As I say I'm very sympathetic to moving gender recognition to a more administrative, less medicalised system - but I think it's gaslighting to pretend it doesn't have an impact on the Equality Act when it is the way of changing your legal sex for the purpose of equalities law. The two, in my view, need to go hand in hand - gender recognition reform and wider Equality Act review and reform.