The Rowling vs. Trans People Hijack

[Admiral Yi]

That's not quite what I said. That was an extreme example of something that obviously should be OK.
There's still the question of tracking back where the line is.
Like for another extreme  if trans woman are indistinguishable but lack a womb would that matter? - irrelevant for sport but clearly marks them as different.

It should be left up to science to determine what the important factors are and clearly define the line of exactly what level of testosterone or muscle mass or whatever it is, is too much.

You say you're disagreeing but I'm scratching my head where the disagreement is.

Lacking a womb is already baked into being trans.

Science can tell us when trans women no longer have an advantage.  What else can they tell us that is useful?

[grumbler]

Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1" tall and had six of the twelve highest-scoring individual games in NBA history.  Wasn't that an "unfair advantage?"  Should there be a separate NBA for tall players?  After all, hormones and surgery do not change a person's height.

Lots of NBA players are tall.  I do not know of any 5'-4 NBA players.

Captain Obvious states the obvious (other than the fact that Muggsy Bogues was in the NBA for 14 years at 5'3" which fact you correctly stated that you did not know).  No part of your post responds to the topic, though.

[viper37]

Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1" tall and had six of the twelve highest-scoring individual games in NBA history.  Wasn't that an "unfair advantage?"  Should there be a separate NBA for tall players?  After all, hormones and surgery do not change a person's height.

Lots of NBA players are tall.  I do not know of any 5'-4 NBA players.

Captain Obvious states the obvious (other than the fact that Muggsy Bogues was in the NBA for 14 years at 5'3" which fact you correctly stated that you did not know).  No part of your post responds to the topic, though.

Sure.  And I'm convinced the NBA has no rules preventing women from acceding to their ranks either, just like the NHL. 

Ever wonder why there aren't any regular women in the NBA, NFL and NHL?  As athletes, they should be able to adapt, as you said.

[grumbler]

This is true.  We separate male and female sports to create interesting and competitive competitions.  Depending on the sport, at high/elite levels, females simply can not compete against males.

(I should note that's only at the high end.  There are plenty of women who could kick my ass in all kinds of sports)

But then that brings us back to trans women.  Is it an "interesting competition" to see a natal male who may or may not be taking female hormones compete against natal females?

Dunno.  Is it an interesting competition when Wilt Chamberlain scores 100 points in a game?  Is it an interesting competition when the University of Alabama with the "unfair advantage" of outweighing their opponents by an average of 32 pounds plays Western Carolina?

If we are to measure the "unfair advantage" of trans women over cis women, is the comparison between the most average trans woman and the most average cis woman?  Or is it fair in your mind when the average trans woman is not as capable as the best cis woman?

The renowned Lia Thomas won an NCAA championship in swimming in 2022 but still ended up rated behind 35 cis women swimmers.  Was her ability an "unfair advantage" or just the result of the typical improvement a college swimmer makes between matriculation and graduation (noting that she was a vey strong swimmer, 6th in the country in the 1000m, before starting the transition)?

There are going to be superior athletes in any sport because of biology.  When is that superiority "unfair" and when is it earned?  When is being a tall basketball player, or a very strong wrestler, or whatever advantage genes give an athlete unfair and when is it fair?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions so my response is to say let women play women's sports and if some have an advantage, that's part of sports.

[PDH]

Being trans does not alter the fundamental biology.  Hormones and surgery do not change that.

But it does alter secondary biology.  While the chromosomes may not be impacted (I am not a scientist who studies the effects of hormones on the body) the expression of those "fundamental biology" factors impact the body if the person is taking hormones and blockers.

Many/most M to F trans athletes have significantly lower testosterone levels, they tend to lose upper body muscle tissue somewhat rapidly as well.  All of this has been talked about here before (and apparently glossed over by some).

[Josquius]

That's not quite what I said. That was an extreme example of something that obviously should be OK.
There's still the question of tracking back where the line is.
Like for another extreme  if trans woman are indistinguishable but lack a womb would that matter? - irrelevant for sport but clearly marks them as different.

It should be left up to science to determine what the important factors are and clearly define the line of exactly what level of testosterone or muscle mass or whatever it is, is too much.

You say you're disagreeing but I'm scratching my head where the disagreement is.

Lacking a womb is already baked into being trans.

Science can tell us when trans women no longer have an advantage.  What else can they tell us that is useful?

Its not so much a total disagreement as a statement that we're agreed on the two extremes but the question of where exactly to draw the line remains.
Given neither of us are scientists leaving up to the sports governing bodies to determine it using actual science, fuck the politicians, and lets not even begin to make idiotic guesses at where it is, seems sensible.


Thinking about things there's also another line to worry about where its a lot harder to just leave it to science- at what level to the barriers come in place.
This is  another problem with those who favour a nuclear option of completely ban trans people from sport.  The highest levels of the sport have this strict testing regime, including for these 'are they a woman?' factors, already.
The potential rewards for success at the top of sport are large. Even if there has been zero example of someone transitioning just for the prize money and I don't see this as too likely, that its a possibility is fair enough.

But at the lowest levels of sport is this such a concern? In a little Sunday league football game which is more about socialisation and having a few beers afterwards than it is winning? - that there's a push to trans people here screams hate to me.

[viper37]

Many/most M to F trans athletes have significantly lower testosterone levels, they tend to lose upper body muscle tissue somewhat rapidly as well.  All of this has been talked about here before (and apparently glossed over by some).

Testosterone levels drop, and maybe after 20 years or hormone therapy there is no discernible difference, but we are talking about athletes in their prime, in their 20s.  Since they would compete in their sports from their teenage years on to the adult life, timing is relevant. 

Jos studies pointed to very long term effects, and I will admit I have not read any meta studies about this subject that is way beyond my field of expertise.  But other scientists from sports federation did, and remain unconvinced that it provide sufficient difference to allow trans M to F trans athletes to participate is competitions like World Cups and Olympics.

Yet, activists are screaming it's still discrimination and pressuring the scientists to reverse their positions.  Then we have people here claiming sports federation should make their decision... But if they do and it's not the decision they want, they're still not ok with it...

So, in the end, it's pointless, isn't it?

[PDH]

Many/most M to F trans athletes have significantly lower testosterone levels, they tend to lose upper body muscle tissue somewhat rapidly as well.  All of this has been talked about here before (and apparently glossed over by some).

Testosterone levels drop, and maybe after 20 years or hormone therapy there is no discernible difference, but we are talking about athletes in their prime, in their 20s.  Since they would compete in their sports from their teenage years on to the adult life, timing is relevant. 

You are talking out of your ass.

Testosterone levels start dropping immediately.  Elite level runners, for instance, lose minutes off their best times in less than a year.  Muscle mass can start dropping within a couple of weeks, and quite quickly.  The testosterone levels (due to blockers) drop below that of XX athletes.

It has been studied.

[crazy canuck]

Many/most M to F trans athletes have significantly lower testosterone levels, they tend to lose upper body muscle tissue somewhat rapidly as well.  All of this has been talked about here before (and apparently glossed over by some).

Testosterone levels drop, and maybe after 20 years or hormone therapy there is no discernible difference, but we are talking about athletes in their prime, in their 20s.  Since they would compete in their sports from their teenage years on to the adult life, timing is relevant. 

You are talking out of your ass.

Testosterone levels start dropping immediately.  Elite level runners, for instance, lose minutes off their best times in less than a year.  Muscle mass can start dropping within a couple of weeks, and quite quickly.  The testosterone levels (due to blockers) drop below that of XX athletes.

It has been studied.

Viper has obviously not missed a couple of weeks of benching and felt the pain of trying to lift the same weight.   

[viper37]

Testosterone levels start dropping immediately.  Elite level runners, for instance, lose minutes off their best times in less than a year.  Muscle mass can start dropping within a couple of weeks, and quite quickly.  The testosterone levels (due to blockers) drop below that of XX athletes.

It has been studied.

The drop begins immediatly, but before it makes a measurable difference in sports performance it takes a while.

Look, if you want to dig up the study and repost it, I'll look at it again.

[crazy canuck]

Testosterone levels start dropping immediately.  Elite level runners, for instance, lose minutes off their best times in less than a year.  Muscle mass can start dropping within a couple of weeks, and quite quickly.  The testosterone levels (due to blockers) drop below that of XX athletes.

It has been studied.

The drop begins immediatly, but before it makes a measurable difference in sports performance it takes a while.

Look, if you want to dig up the study and repost it, I'll look at it again.

Do you have some academic literature which supports your contention that it takes years for a measurable difference in sports performance to manifest itself?  That is highly counter intuitive.

[grumbler]

Testosterone levels start dropping immediately.  Elite level runners, for instance, lose minutes off their best times in less than a year.  Muscle mass can start dropping within a couple of weeks, and quite quickly.  The testosterone levels (due to blockers) drop below that of XX athletes.

It has been studied.

The drop begins immediatly, but before it makes a measurable difference in sports performance it takes a while.

Look, if you want to dig up the study and repost it, I'll look at it again.

Now about the US Air Force Study

Results Participants were 26.2 years old (SD 5.5). Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.

They didn't have sufficient data to examine a sufficient number if these cases beyond 2 years.