The Rowling vs. Trans People Hijack

[Josquius]

In the UK there are no rules about toilets despite the efforts of some to make it so, importing American shit.

[FunkMonk]

What I find silly is I read recently there's these Gen Zedders (and they are the problem, here) who play organized Quidditch who now want to change the name of their sport because they don't want to be associated with that nasty woman Rowling. And I'm like, "um....you do know you play a game where you run around with a broom between your legs and pretend you're flying, right?"

As far as this whole trans thing goes, to me it's a matter of what you have between your legs, and I don't mean the broom.

Bathrooms/Changerooms should be labelled "Dicks" and "No Dicks".

Absolutely massive



energy on display here

[Josephus]

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Trans women are women.

If they were women they wouldn't be trans.

So all gay men aren't men? All Swedish women aren't women? All Indian elephants aren't elephants?
Adjectives usually don't eliminate the core thing they're modifying.

Really? And we're supposed to take this serious?

XX = female/woman. XY = male/man.
A trans woman is XY.
A gay man is XY

A trans man is XX
A swedish woman is XX.

it's not that hard. And identifying these two at birth can be done easily without genetic sequencing because nature made it really obvious.

(and as an aside: an Indian elephant, wether XX or XY, is still an Elephantidae)

Maybe you should try to stop seeing everyone that disagrees with you as fascists or transphobes. It is after all the 'progressives' that are trying to redefine reality to suit their delusions and are willing to browbeat everyone not tagging along in a most authoritarian fashion.

[Tamas]

Where I see the logic fail (and me failing to put a logical system on this is where my reservations are coming from) is how even Josq thinks where a trans person is sent to prison to should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Meaning he even does not think that gender equals sex absolutely.

But then why demand absolute commitment to the belief of gender=sex?

[Josquius]

It's not like there's no presedent for treating certain prisoners different to the norm. Accommodations are often made for disability, illness, the liklihood of being murdered in prison, etc...

A trans woman is a woman.
Anyone who claims to be a trans woman isn't necessarily automatically so. When they had this epiphany at a very convenient time it smells awfully sus.

Its not a simple matter where you can pass one side fits all laws.
 

Trans women are women.

If they were women they wouldn't be trans.

So all gay men aren't men? All Swedish women aren't women? All Indian elephants aren't elephants?
Adjectives usually don't eliminate the core thing they're modifying.

Really? And we're supposed to take this serious?

XX = female/woman. XY = male/man.
A trans woman is XY.
A gay man is XY

A trans man is XX
A swedish woman is XX.

it's not that hard. And identifying these two at birth can be done easily without genetic sequencing because nature made it really obvious.

(and as an aside: an Indian elephant, wether XX or XY, is still an Elephantidae)

Maybe you should try to stop seeing everyone that disagrees with you as fascists or transphobes. It is after all the 'progressives' that are trying to redefine reality to suit their delusions and are willing to browbeat everyone not tagging along in a most authoritarian fashion.

XX men and XY women(from birth, obviously trans people too), XXX, XYX, etc... All exist.
Ever hear of Caster semenya for a famous example?
This is a prime example of what I was talking about with the bad science of those pushing against trans people.

LOL you're the one who decided to call those who disagree with you fascists here. And you still try to pull out that usual line. As said, the actual fascists are absolutely not to be found on the side of LGBT rights.

Also, just FYI nope, the core of this shit is  reactionaries trying to strip trans rights rather than any effort to gain more rights for trans people.  It's the far right and their fellow travellers trying to redefine reality to fit their fairy tale image of how things were in the good old days.

[Tamas]

But if it is not a simple matter, why is it ok to so quickly brand people on the other side of arguments into the details of it "hate groups" and such?

[Sheilbh]

Also, just FYI nope, the core of this shit is  reactionaries trying to strip trans rights rather than any effort to gain more rights for trans people.  It's the far right and their fellow travellers trying to redefine reality to fit their fairy tale image of how things were in the good old days.

News organisations with massive rows about this are the Guardian and the NYT. Here it has caused huge internal fights in the Greens, SNP and Labour Party.

If this is because of the far right and their fellow travellers, they've played a very long con. I think the fact that there are these rows and splits in left/liberal group suggests that perhaps there needs to be a different approach to building support, because it's not uniting people who are instinctively broadly sympathetic.

LOL you're the one who decided to call those who disagree with you fascists here. And you still try to pull out that usual line. As said, the actual fascists are absolutely not to be found on the side of LGBT rights.

Ish. There's historic strands of, for want of a better word, homofascism - but also I think it's a pretty strong trend in Europe in the politics of parts of the far-right in the last 20-25 years, starting with Pim Fortuyn.

With the masculinist trends on the far-right in the US I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of old school homofascism there either.

[Gups]

But if it is not a simple matter, why is it ok to so quickly brand people on the other side of arguments into the details of it "hate groups" and such?

Exactly. You can't have a reasonable discussion with people like Jos. You disagree and you are transphobic, part of the hard right, a member of a hate group.

The arrogance of a man telling abused women how they are supposed to feel about safe spaces is beyond me.

[garbon]

But if it is not a simple matter, why is it ok to so quickly brand people on the other side of arguments into the details of it "hate groups" and such?

Exactly. You can't have a reasonable discussion with people like Jos. You disagree and you are transphobic, part of the hard right, a member of a hate group.

The arrogance of a man telling abused women how they are supposed to feel about safe spaces is beyond me.

It is also probably hard to have a discussion when you come in so hot.

[Gups]

He's had 4 pages of calling people transphobic, far right etc before I said anything.

[Josquius]

Also, just FYI nope, the core of this shit is  reactionaries trying to strip trans rights rather than any effort to gain more rights for trans people.  It's the far right and their fellow travellers trying to redefine reality to fit their fairy tale image of how things were in the good old days.

News organisations with massive rows about this are the Guardian and the NYT. Here it has caused huge internal fights in the Greens, SNP and Labour Party.

If this is because of the far right and their fellow travellers, they've played a very long con. I think the fact that there are these rows and splits in left/liberal group suggests that perhaps there needs to be a different approach to building support, because it's not uniting people who are instinctively broadly sympathetic.

Because the right are pretty aligned on a view of trans bad.
You don't get debates about trans rights in the daily mail, you instead just get a rant about how all they're all a bunch of creepy perverts plotting to kidnap your children.

Ish. There's historic strands of, for want of a better word, homofascism - but also I think it's a pretty strong trend in Europe in the politics of parts of the far-right in the last 20-25 years, starting with Pim Fortuyn.

With the masculinist trends on the far-right in the US I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of old school homofascism there eithe

It's certainly true that as gay people have become accepted the line of who to hate has moved on, a key factor in why trans hate has shot up so much of late, and a number of awful  gay folk have decided it's beat to be part of the torch wielding mob that would have been at their door just a few decades ago.
I don't for a second believe the true black died in the wool fascists genuinely are pro gay however, they merely see them as tomorrow's issue and pretending to support them being an occasionally useful tool to defend other bigotry.

But if it is not a simple matter, why is it ok to so quickly brand people on the other side of arguments into the details of it "hate groups" and such?

Exactly. You can't have a reasonable discussion with people like Jos. You disagree and you are transphobic, part of the hard right, a member of a hate group.

The arrogance of a man telling abused women how they are supposed to feel about safe spaces is beyond me.

I've no idea what your views on trans people are but that's two squares on the transphobe bingo card there - whinging about using proper terms via accusing those who are pro lgbt rights of labelling anyone who disagrees in the slightest a transphobe /bigot/nazi/whatever and the whole "you're a man telling women what to think. You're the bigot!" nonsense.
As mentioned before - polls consistently show a majority of women are in favour of trans rights. More than of men even.

But if it is not a simple matter, why is it ok to so quickly brand people on the other side of arguments into the details of it "hate groups" and such?

Because the other side of treat trans people like human beings is the side of being a hate filled shit bag.
This isn't about raise taxes 10% or cut taxes 10%. Its about whether a group of innocent people deserve the right to exist.

There's room for discussion within the details. You know, like I thought we were doing. But not to take a completely anti trans position.

[Sheilbh]

As mentioned before - polls consistently show a majority of women are in favour of trans rights. More than of men even. 

But again - if you poll the question as should we do things that make the lives of trans people easier there is huge, majority support.

If you poll the specifics of current plans: removing the need for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, shortening the amount of time living in a gender, and lowering the age at which people can obtain a GRC - then a similar majority oppose each one. So people want to make life easier for trans people but actually broadly support the substance of the current legal framework.

Also I've said it before but I have a strong suspicion that the public understanding of a trans person is someone who has had gender reassignment surgery - which is not the case at all but I don't think that's fully clear in the public mind.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Maybe I've missed it--but the New York Times has published an article basically claiming that despite extensive (weeks long) work, a journalist could not find a single transphobic quote to attribute to Rowling. I haven't seen anything in this thread that meaningfully pushes back against that. The broader debate on trans issues in unresolvable, but it should be fairly easy, if Rowling is on record as being a bigoted transphobe, to find such quotes, no?

[Josquius]

As mentioned before - polls consistently show a majority of women are in favour of trans rights. More than of men even. 

But again - if you poll the question as should we do things that make the lives of trans people easier there is huge, majority support.

If you poll the specifics of current plans: removing the need for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, shortening the amount of time living in a gender, and lowering the age at which people can obtain a GRC - then a similar majority oppose each one. So people want to make life easier for trans people but actually broadly support the substance of the current legal framework.

Also I've said it before but I have a strong suspicion that the public understanding of a trans person is someone who has had gender reassignment surgery - which is not the case at all but I don't think that's fully clear in the public mind.

I wonder how this would hold up comparing to other issues. % who agree with a simple "should we do a nice thing" vs % who agree with a "complex proposal you probably don't understand much about towards the nice thing".
I do suspect when it becomes clear something is outside of a person's expertise they err on the side of best say no.


Curious you think people believe trans means only post op. As when I see transphobic stuff it more often comes from the opposite place. Specifying rape and penisses and pregnancy as the big risk. Little regard for post op trans people or the fact that hormones can tend to chemically castrate.
Thinking of media portrayals too, I think the whole "chick with a dick" image tends to dominate, though there is a general awareness surgery does exist.... Maybe towards your side a bit of a belief in that getting rid of the penis is always the end state?