The Rowling vs. Trans People Hijack

[Gups]

Yet despite having been asked to twice, you have failed to specify the basis on which you accuse Rowling of being transphobic. Since her primary opposition is against self-ID and the protection of women's only spaces you presumably must think  that is a transphobic, far right position.

I'll ask again. What is it that Rowling has actually said that you consider makers her transphobic and far right?

The arrogance of a cis straight man telling trans women how they are supposed to feel about someone who has said stuff that offends them is beyond me.

Gotcha. So if a (any) trans woman thinks Rowling is transphobic, it's case closed. No need for any ally to justify it with reference to what Rowling actually says.

[Admiral Yi]

So still no example? I have no idea what rawlings said, she might be a raging transphobe, but making that claim a d continuing to do so without backing it up after being confronted seems pretty low.

Squeeze did link some site called Pinksheet or somesuch pages back which I assume lays out the indictment.  I thought it was pretty small beer.  The crux seems to be Rowlings said something like as a woman I don't think trans women are women.

[Admiral Yi]

The arrogance of a cis straight man telling trans women how they are supposed to feel about someone who has said stuff that offends them is beyond me.

No one can tell anyone else how to feel about a given person.  However we all have a right to criticize someone's use of a word, such as transphobe, because it is a universal concept, which exists independently of the person who hates Rowlings.  No one person has a monopoly on who we can call a liar, or an adulterer, or a thief.  Same with transphobe or any of the other identity politics accusations.

[Admiral Yi]

The irony is that Rowlings is implying that as a woman she gets veto on who we call a woman. 

[Tamas]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

[garbon]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

Here's one take. Note a bit of a long read.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/

It does make me wonder about the opposite though. Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

[Razgovory]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

Here's one take. Note a bit of a long read.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/

It does make me wonder about the opposite though. Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

We still remember when that black guy claimed to be an Indian.

[Tamas]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

Here's one take. Note a bit of a long read.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/

It does make me wonder about the opposite though. Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

Thanks. I think it would. We have mini-scandals over non-white actors appearing in movies together with dragons and orcs.

[Admiral Yi]

Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

We have plenty of examples of black people passing.  I've not read anything about them that is other than sympathetic.  From blacks or whites.

[Zoupa]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

Here's one take. Note a bit of a long read.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/

It does make me wonder about the opposite though. Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

We still remember when that black guy claimed to be an Indian.

 

[Sheilbh]

Here's one take. Note a bit of a long read.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/

It does make me wonder about the opposite though. Would it cause as much a stir if a person who appears black says that they are white?

It's an interesting piece and I get the point about generational inequality not being something that is experienced by women. But my thought is that generational inequality seems to be a product or a consequence of structural racism - and while there may not be a direct analogue for that, I think there is a patriarchy which is trans-generational like structural racism.

It seems to me wrong to imply that there isn't, to borrow its language, yet a collective reckoning for misogyny and the patriarchy in society. While the impacts may not accumulate across the generations, it is still the case that each generation faces the effects and consequences of that. We have not yet got to the point where there's a generation of women who are not facing a gender pay gap, often inadequate medical treatment/pathologisation (for example huge HRT inequality, period poverty and in the Bulley case the way the menopause was discussed) - and, certainly looking at it from a British perspective, both risk from gendered violence and, I'd argue, a form of structural misogyny in the criminal justice system that fails to catch, charge or convict the perpetrators.

And obviously racial inequality, as well as having that accumulative aspect, is felt afresh by each generation - similar health inequality, a similarly structurally racist criminal justice system (but with different results).

I agree with the conclusion of the piece - I do think there's a difference. But I'm not sure what it is or that they've identified it (not least because surely it implies that if there are reparations/that collective reckoning happens there would be no difference with trans-racialism which I don't think I agree with).

[Barrister]

Yet despite having been asked to twice, you have failed to specify the basis on which you accuse Rowling of being transphobic. Since her primary opposition is against self-ID and the protection of women's only spaces you presumably must think  that is a transphobic, far right position.

I'll ask again. What is it that Rowling has actually said that you consider makers her transphobic and far right?

The arrogance of a cis straight man telling trans women how they are supposed to feel about someone who has said stuff that offends them is beyond me.

Jos - are you not in fact a cis straight man?

This is a weird play of the identity card, I must admit.  In particular since you're playing it against Gups, a non-white cis straight man.

[garbon]

Yet despite having been asked to twice, you have failed to specify the basis on which you accuse Rowling of being transphobic. Since her primary opposition is against self-ID and the protection of women's only spaces you presumably must think  that is a transphobic, far right position.

I'll ask again. What is it that Rowling has actually said that you consider makers her transphobic and far right?

The arrogance of a cis straight man telling trans women how they are supposed to feel about someone who has said stuff that offends them is beyond me.

Jos - are you not in fact a cis straight man?

This is a weird play of the identity card, I must admit.  In particular since you're playing it against Gups, a non-white cis straight man.

Also why are you bringing in race?

[crazy canuck]

Which reminds me: is there something like an established ideology around why gender is ok to be self-declared but race isn't?

I am not sure why we still use the word "race" but in any event it is not ok to self identify as Indigenous when you are not.

[Admiral Yi]

Also why are you bringing in race?

Because a half Indian dude gets more PC legitimacy points than a totally white dude.