Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Berkut]

Do show me where I claimed Musk was a "super engineering genius"?

[Berkut]

the refusal to acknowledge any of Musks accomplishments are not about any kind of evaluation of those accomplishments, but the rejection that any single person can in fact accomplish anything like that in a way that they deserve credit for at all to begin with.

And what do we call your refusal to be honest about Musk's accomplishments--that they are largely accomplishments in attracting investor capital and not in innovating technology?

THis is so deliciously reductionist. 

"He just attracted investor capital".

Yeah, I suppose he did do that. But that isn't utterly generic - that is what every CEO of every company that is looking for investment does. 

What did he DO with that capital? How did he attract it? What was accomplished?

Henry Ford attracted investor capital  - I guess he doesn't deserve any credit for anything. He didn't invent the car, he just "attracted investor capital".

Bill Gates? Just attracted investor capital. Big deal.

It's fascinating what lengths people will go to in order to avoid recognizing the accomplishments of someone just because they don't like them.

[Zanza]

No one said Tesla has done nothing at all. AFAIK every car company in the world innovates new car stuff over 10 year windows.

Yes, but Tesla was more innovative than most (all?) of their competition in the timeframe between the launch of the Model S in 2012 (of course the innovative phase was probably already some years earlier) and the Model 3 mass launched in late 2018. Some of which is down to Musk leadership, his willingness to risk it all, some luck and of course US government subsidies. 

Since having launched the Model 3, they seem to concentrate on operational excellence over innovation. Let's see if their new products actually are innovative again or more vaporware. Some potential there.

[Berkut]

I don't see how anyone can know anything about a Tesla and say there isn't any innovation that other car companies have not done as well.

It is the first attempt at a autonomous car. It doesn't just talk to your smartphone, the entire car runs off a app-like interface. The car literally drives itself. Is there some other car out there that did that first?

Maybe its all a failed innovation. Maybe people don't want to be able to have their car drive up to them in the parking lot. Maybe they don't want a car that has an actual user interface that isn't from 1980. Maybe they don't like the idea of a car that is truly completely electric, or that has an integrated, nationwide charging network built for it.

But to say it isn't innovation? Go drive around in a Tesla. You might not like it. You might think it is too expensive. You might say the build quality is not up to its price point.  Hell, *I* don't own one despite thinking they are pretty fucking amazing, because, well, I am not going to spend that kind of money on any car.

But to dismiss them as not being innovative? That just betrays are rather incredible amount of emotional bias. They are incredibly innovative.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Tesla is not, AFAIK, the first attempt at an autonomous car. In fact actual autonomous cars have been running on test tracks since the early 2010s before Tesla even was in that game (there were even a few prototype self-driving cars in the 1980s before Musk was even a businessman). It would help a lot if you acquainted yourself with the facts before you resumed your next bout of Musk-love.

[celedhring]

Musk's strategy of being vertically integrated with very few outside contractors is also pretty novel for the modern automaking industry and it's something he certainly championed after the experience of the Roadster (where Tesla acted more as an assembler of parts designed and/or built by others, although they ended up ditching the powertrain and building their own). I think it helped them in their initial phase, since it gave them a lot of control over the product and helped drive innovation, but it might hurt them in the long term. You can't really do everything, and do it well.

Tbf, I think Musk made a lot of risky calls with Tesla that paid off. He was certainly helped along by investors and subsidies (heck, Tesla is still losing money when you take out the subsidies, but I'm a fan of government subsidies to nudge the industry towards a socially desirable direction so no objection here )

But he has also had his fair share of failed businesses/dog & pony shows (The Boring Company  ) that don't get talked as much. He's not infallible, and he might believe his own hubris at this point.

[celedhring]

Tesla is not, AFAIK, the first attempt at an autonomous car. In fact actual autonomous cars have been running on test tracks since the early 2010s before Tesla even was in that game (there were even a few prototype self-driving cars in the 1980s before Musk was even a businessman). It would help a lot if you acquainted yourself with the facts before you resumed your next bout of Musk-love.

Also, Tesla's autonomous technology is lower tech compared to some of the competition. He's just pushing it faster.

[Berkut]

It is the first attempt at an autonomous car that actually drives somewhere other then a test track. Which is rather obvious.

If we have to argue about whether or not a Tesla has innovated in the area of automobile autonomy, then there really isn't anything to argue about - you are not being honest or objective at that point. It would help if you cared about being honest instead of just trying to score another cheap point.

I don't love Musk, and I've had as much negative to say about him as anyone in the thread. You are just lying now. Why?

Being able to recognize that despite being an asshole, he has in fact accomplished a lot is not "love". It's just not irrational hate. There is something in between called "objectivity". Try it sometime.

[Berkut]

Musk's strategy of being vertically integrated with very few outside contractors is also pretty novel for the automaking industry and it's something he certainly championed after the experience of the Roadster (where Tesla acted more as an assembler of parts designed and/or built by others, although they ended up ditching the powertrain and building their own). I think it helped them in their initial phase, since it gave them a lot of control over the product and helped drive innovation, but it might hurt them in the long term. You can't really do everything, and do it well.

Tbf, I think Musk made a lot of risky calls with Tesla that paid off. He was certainly helped along by investors and subsidies (heck, Tesla is still losing money when you take out the subsidies, but I'm a fan of government subsidies to nudge the industry towards a socially desirable direction so no objection here )

But he has also had his fair share of failed businesses/dog & pony shows (The Boring Company  ) that don't get talked as much. He's not infallible, and he might believe his own hubris at this point.

My argument is that he has accomplished a lot. That argument stands regardless of how much he has failed.

If I go to 8 Olympics and win the gold medal during one of them, the fact that I didn't win in the other 7 doesn't mean I didn't win the one time, or take away from that accomplishment.

[Berkut]

Tesla is not, AFAIK, the first attempt at an autonomous car. In fact actual autonomous cars have been running on test tracks since the early 2010s before Tesla even was in that game (there were even a few prototype self-driving cars in the 1980s before Musk was even a businessman). It would help a lot if you acquainted yourself with the facts before you resumed your next bout of Musk-love.

Also, Tesla's autonomous technology is lower tech compared to some of the competition. He's just pushing it faster.

The exact same argument can and has been made about every single technical innovation that has made it to market, ever.

There is always some example of someone else who totally did it better, for sure, but failed to actually get the better gadget to market.

That doesn't take away from the innovation of the technology that DID win the race to market. The ability to bring technology to market is innovation itself (along with a lot of luck and other factors of course).

[celedhring]

Mercedes-Benz already has better, more capable, autonomous cars in the market than Tesla does. I personally think Tesla won't win this one race. They don't have the headstart they enjoyed when they launched EVs, and their technology choice (essentially they rely solely on cameras instead of also using radar/lidar) may hamper them in the long term.

Again, I'm not dissing Tesla's achievements (and without Musk the company probably dies like any other automaker startup of the 2000s). The company played an amazing part in making EVs popular and showing them as commercially viable products and not novelties.

[The Brain]

Electric cars are 19th century tech.

[Berkut]

Mercedes-Benz already has better, more capable, autonomous cars in the market than Tesla does. I personally think Tesla won't win this one race. They don't have the headstart they enjoyed when they launched EVs, and their technology choice (essentially they rely solely on cameras instead of also using radar/lidar) may hamper them in the long term.

Again, I'm not dissing Tesla's achievements (and without Musk the company probably dies like any other automaker startup of the 2000s). The company played an amazing part in making EVs popular and showing them as commercially viable products and not novelties.

No argument from me. The most innovative company is often not the one who ends up winning in the long run.

My point is simply that to look at Tesla and claim that the only thing Musk did of note was "attract investment" betrays some kind of emotional investment in hating the guy, not any kind of objective evaluation of what Tesla accomplished.

[grumbler]

You seem to be reading arguments I never made since this response does not contradict anything I have said. In fact I have said it is genuinely impressive Musk's ability to raise capital. I guess for Musk fans it just never is enough if you aren't fawning, huh?

That's because I was just repeating your argument back at you.  You are reading arguments that Berkut never made, so it seems fair to read arguments that you never made.  I guess for Musk haters it is never enough if you aren't blindly hating, huh?

[grumbler]

Tesla is not, AFAIK, the first attempt at an autonomous car. In fact actual autonomous cars have been running on test tracks since the early 2010s before Tesla even was in that game (there were even a few prototype self-driving cars in the 1980s before Musk was even a businessman). It would help a lot if you acquainted yourself with the facts before you resumed your next bout of Musk-love.

So the fact that a bunch of companies failed at producing an autonomous car means that the one that succeeded is not innovative?  Is that really an argument you want to leave out there?

It would help a lot if you learned the meaning of words before you assume your next bout of irrational Musk-hatred.