Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[HVC]

Are they really the laughing stock of the western world? They have a lot of competition these days.

I mean America has trump, but ain't no one going to push them around. Uk can't even bully a trade deal.  They used to conquer entire countries for a trade deal

[Sheilbh]

I mean America has trump, but ain't no one going to push them around. Uk can't even bully a trade deal.  They used to conquer entire countries for a trade deal

You know that is broadly seen as a bad thing, right?

[HVC]

Imagine living in the Edwardian age, leaders of the world, respected, admired and feared. Now your great grand kids are the laughing stock of the western world. Mighty big tumble.

Although I always wonder how similar it was. There were political disasters and failed leaders in the Edwardian age, say - it's just we don't know the jokes they were making about it in the music hall or pubs. Our understanding of that period is through elites (and I think "Britishness" - reserve, politeness, seriousness, stability - was broadly an elite construction in the 19th century rather than a real thing). They all took it terribly seriously, but did the East End?

I mean I wonder how much the majority of the country really cared about that tumble at all. Did it really matter to them if you weren't in the elite, caught by that line in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy  "Poor loves. Trained to Empire, trained to rule the waves."

Also I think we should be the laughing stock because Liz Truss was PM, not because she was removed - that bit is healthy.

I'm sure they always laughed at themselves, but now other nations are laughing at them too

[HVC]

I mean America has trump, but ain't no one going to push them around. Uk can't even bully a trade deal.  They used to conquer entire countries for a trade deal

You know that is broadly seen as a bad thing, right?

Might makes right


I mean I'm not judging the morality, just the optics haha

[Valmy]

I mean it wasn't like Britain wasn't a lowkey basketcase even during the Empire. They once had millions starve to death due to a famine despite being the richest country in the world with massive agricultural colonies.

[Sheilbh]

I mean I'm not judging the morality, just the optics haha

Fair

It just slightly reminds me of any of those nostalgic takes like the weird yearning for the Cold War you sometimes see in Americans, fondly looking back to when the parties worked together - but it was for a big chunk of that period not a democracy, whole swathes of people were excluded from the economy and/or civil rights and took place under a relatively constant fear of nuclear annihilation. It seems odd to nostalgise

In the same way Britain was once a great and feared power - and that wasn't a good thing.

[Valmy]

In the same way Britain was once a great and feared power - and that wasn't a good thing.

Well hopefully if Britain is ever a great power again it is because of what it produces not because of what it takes.

[Jacob]

Still, I'd rather have a messy but functioning democracy than most other options. I mean, a neatly organized and smoothly running democracy would be better, but that's always a bit of a challenge.

I think in spite of all this, the UK will come out okay. In time.

[Sheilbh]

Still, I'd rather have a messy but functioning democracy than most other options. I mean, a neatly organized and smoothly running democracy would be better, but that's always a bit of a challenge.

Yeah, for sure - although I think politics is generally messy because it's about conflicting interests and values.

Some level of political stability is good but in a democratic society, I think smooth and neatly organised can be good but, like consensus, sometimes can be a function of relatively high tolerance for scandal or failure or a sort of brittleness. If politics is too smooth, I'd worry what constraints (formal or informal) are operating in that system.

I think in spite of all this, the UK will come out okay. In time.

Same - I've always thought the UK is fundamentally fine.

I think there's been vastly too much over-interpretation of what the "populist wave" means, or how Britain is like Trump's America, or the threat to our democracy. It was 90% nonsense (but deeply felt nonsense) and missed the real problem which was that we have a bad Tory government doing what they do when they have a majority (especially after a couple of terms) - and I think it sent people in some odd directions in terms of political priorities or campaigns.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Imagine living in the Edwardian age, leaders of the world, respected, admired and feared. Now your great grand kids are the laughing stock of the western world. Mighty big tumble.

Although I always wonder how similar it was. There were political disasters and failed leaders in the Edwardian age, say - it's just we don't know the jokes they were making about it in the music hall or pubs. Our understanding of that period is through elites (and I think "Britishness" - reserve, politeness, seriousness, stability - was broadly an elite construction in the 19th century rather than a real thing). They all took it terribly seriously, but did the East End?

I mean I wonder how much the majority of the country really cared about that tumble at all. Did it really matter to them if you weren't in the elite, caught by that line in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy  "Poor loves. Trained to Empire, trained to rule the waves."

Also I think we should be the laughing stock because Liz Truss was PM, not because she was removed - that bit is healthy.

I've always felt that the Victorian Englishman you mention was indeed an elite construction, and also one that flattered our self-esteem precisely because it was something that we were not.

The opinions of 16th century visitors and ambassadors to England (the Venetian ambassadors are particularly good) ring more true to me. According to them the English are emotional, touchy, vain, bold and with forward women; they are also dismissive of foreigners and think that England is the finest country in the world; the visitors also grumble about how expensive London is 

[garbon]

Still, I'd rather have a messy but functioning democracy than most other options. I mean, a neatly organized and smoothly running democracy would be better, but that's always a bit of a challenge.

Yeah, for sure - although I think politics is generally messy because it's about conflicting interests and values.

Some level of political stability is good but in a democratic society, I think smooth and neatly organised can be good but, like consensus, sometimes can be a function of relatively high tolerance for scandal or failure or a sort of brittleness. If politics is too smooth, I'd worry what constraints (formal or informal) are operating in that system.

I think in spite of all this, the UK will come out okay. In time.

Same - I've always thought the UK is fundamentally fine.

I think there's been vastly too much over-interpretation of what the "populist wave" means, or how Britain is like Trump's America, or the threat to our democracy. It was 90% nonsense (but deeply felt nonsense) and missed the real problem which was that we have a bad Tory government doing what they do when they have a majority (especially after a couple of terms) - and I think it sent people in some odd directions in terms of political priorities or campaigns.

But thinking things are fundamentally fine is how you get a series of bad governments steadily making things worse.

[HVC]

But thinking things are fundamentally fine is how you get a series of bad governments steadily making things worse.

Overused, but still funny.

[The Larch]

the visitors also grumble about how expensive London is 

Some things never change. 

[PJL]

Looks like Boris will most likely be PM again this time next week. The opposition are making a good case for him re the electoral mandate argument. Tories will still lose but not badly under him.

[Josquius]

It was quite painful to see on the news, walking around some town and asking people what they think, a large number of on the surface nice seeking elderly people saying to bring back Boris as he did good things like brexit

We really do need to setup a rule to stop this happening again. Only one leader change per GE allowed barring forced changes due to death and the like.