[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

Much better to talk about what policies are being proposed and perhaps that is the way to getting a broader consensus of critical issues.

It will be interesting to see if she governs as radically as she is now sounding.  My hope is that while she might keep up her rhetoric to keep her base happy, she will govern in a more rational way.  For example, I had no idea that Alberta had entered into so many protocol agreements with the Feds during Kenney's tenure, until I heard him list them off during his interview in that podcast.

Yeah, we'll see what happens.  Her track record has signs that give both comfort and fear.

COmfort: she's been around politics a long time.  President of her Campus PC club, internship at the Fraser Institute.  Her time as leader of Wildrose she grew party support quite a bit.  After losing the 2012 election by staying silent and not criticizing or denouncing a couple of problematic candidates she seemed to learn some real discipline in dealing with the crazies.  Her crossing the floor and joining the PCs, as poorly handled as it was, shows she knows the need to move to the centre in order to win.

Fear:  since leaving politics she was a talk-radio host where she said a whole bunch of controversial things.  She has completely pandered to the crazies within the UCP.

[Barrister]

The
I am not sure what an alt right or woke leftist is.  It's a lazy shorthand for "people I don't agree with".

I don't think alt right is a lazy short hand for "people I don't agree with". The location of exact boundaries may have shifted or been blurred over time and for various political reasons, but there are real political differences between, say Pierre Poilievre and the Diagolon movement. Only one of them is alt right (Diagolon, in case that was in doubt).

Sure, I think BB you and I would be able to readily agree on who we think fit that label.  But the problem is, as a term of common usage, it has gone beyond that.  It's like PP calling everyone to the left of him "woke".  I hear a lot of people on the left talking about everyone to the right of them as being alt right.  I think BB is also correct that when those terms were first coined, it was people self identifying as being part of that group.  And now it is merely a pejorative. 

See my sig for more details 

So alt-right was a term coined and attempted to be popularized by Richard Spencer in the early 2010s.  Richard Spencer was a fairly explicit white nationalist, and calling it the "alt right" was an attempt to bring that kind of white nationalism mainstream.  It caught a lot of attention during the 2016 election, which generated a lot of controversy.  It largely imploded though after the 2017 Charlottetown march.

I don't think anyone self-identifies as being alt-right anymore.  If you go to http://alternativeright.com/ (Spencer's webzine) the newest article is from 4 years ago.

So who then is alt-right?  Is Marjorie Taylor Greene alt-right?  Perhaps - she has spoken at white nationalist conferences.  But that explicit white nationalism seems to be essential for any meaningful definition, and not just for it to mean "far right" or "rightwingers I don't like".

You mentioned Diagolon.  They're certainly far right.  I don't know much about them.  It appears to be an online-only "organization" deeply steeped in "ironic" memes.  They're cheering for society's collapse, and groups like that are frequently white nationalists, but I don't know if Diagolon has expressed white nationalist views or not.  I couldn't find any in a quick search.

But is Trump in the alt-right?  Josh Hawley?  Danielle Smith?  Anti-vaxxers? MAGA types?

[Grey Fox]

Yes, they are all alt-right. Because, they are from the right and white supremacist.

[Jacob]

But is Trump in the alt-right?  Josh Hawley?  Danielle Smith?  Anti-vaxxers? MAGA types?

Trump and Hawley - No (though they gleefully use them).

EDIT to add: MTG? - Yeah I think so. As far as I can see, the only thing about her is that she's explicitly regurgitating alt right talking points.

Danielle Smith - I don't know her or Albertan politics well enough to say where she sits. She may be in the Trump/ Hawley camp and deliberately use the alt right, she may be in a spot where she has to not antagonize them too much, or something else. But my base assumption is "no, she is not."

Anti-Vaxxers - there's an overlap but they are different things. The alt right actively uses anti-vax sentiment as a recruitment and propaganda tool, so there is that, but plenty of ant-vaxxers are not alt right in any shape or form.

MAGA - a subset of MAGA overlaps with a subset of the alt right (see "Trump gleefully uses the alt right"), and a sub set of the alt right are MAGA types as well, but one does not automatically indicate the other.

To me, alt right primarily are the white supremacists, the militant misogynists, and similarly reactionary populists. But the "alt" part matters too, it mostly involves people who don't formally have political power. Once they have power they have to decide how (if) they change their message to their position, whether they tone down the rhetoric or go full Fascist. In either case, they're not really "alt" any more. They might be Fascist White Supremacists, or they might be highly problematic reactionary right wingers or whatever. But I wouldn't call them alt right anymore.

There are plenty of politicians, businesses, and media concerns that have areas of interest/ overlap/ interaction with the alt right and who enable them in various ways - but they themselves are not alt-right IMO. The real substance of the argument is probably going to be to what degree that is true and if so how much it matters in any given individual case.

I'm curious - since this conversation started based on a usage of alt right where you and I hypothetically agreed, what do you think?

[Barrister]

I'm curious - since this conversation started based on a usage of alt right where you and I hypothetically agreed, what do you think?

I think alt-right, like woke, is not really a useful taxonomy anymore because it's used more as a pejorative by the sides opposite than by anyone to honestly describe themselves.

[Jacob]

I think alt-right, like woke, is not really a useful taxonomy anymore because it's used more as a pejorative by the sides opposite than by anyone to honestly describe themselves.

I misread some earlier posts - I thought you'd used alt right as a valid category, but I see you'd already said what you're repeating now. My apologies.

In that case, what term do you use to separate folks like the Patriot Front, the Proud Boys, the Diagolon Movement, those jerks who brought weapons to the Coutts Border Blockade, the Jan 6th organizers, and their supporters from other parts of the right side of the political spectrum?

[Barrister]

I think alt-right, like woke, is not really a useful taxonomy anymore because it's used more as a pejorative by the sides opposite than by anyone to honestly describe themselves.

I misread some earlier posts - I thought you'd used alt right as a valid category, but I see you'd already said what you're repeating now. My apologies.

In that case, what term do you use to separate folks like the Patriot Front, the Proud Boys, the Diagolon Movement, those jerks who brought weapons to the Coutts Border Blockade, the Jan 6th organizers, and their supporters from other parts of the right side of the political spectrum?

Well, I mean "alt-right" is a valid term to describe Richard Spencer and the 2017 Charlottestown marchers!

"far-right" is about the best I've got.  I've often just used the word "crazies", although I guess that's pejorative as well.  Militia groups?

[crazy canuck]

I think we make the same blunder as those who refer to the "woke left" when we try to group everyone on the far right into one group.  There is a difference between the White Nationalists and ill informed anti vaxxers.  There is also be an overlap between the two.  But there is also an overlap between left wing environmentalists and anti vaxxers.

Getting to the point of discussing the issues, rather than simply name calling (labelling) is probably going to be the way forward, if we are to move forward.

[Barrister]

Huh - just found out it's election day in Quebec.  Have heard almost nothing about it up till now.  Is that because Legault is just cruising for re-election?

[crazy canuck]

There has been a lot of coverage in the Globe

[Barrister]

But anyways - yeah the CAQ looks to be leading with 39% support, with all the other opposition parties (Liberals, PQ, lefty Quebec Solidaire, the conservatives) polling in the teens.

[Grey Fox]

Viper and I talked about it a little.

But I have no interest in discussing Quebec politics with RoC people so I didn't post anything about it.

@viper casted my vote chanting your name.

[Jacob]

Viper and I talked about it a little.

But I have no interest in discussing Quebec politics with RoC people so I didn't post anything about it.

@viper casted my vote chanting your name.

That's too bad - I'd love to hear your take. My only local insight is from Viper, such as it is, and I suspect you have a different point of view.

[viper37]

Huh - just found out it's election day in Quebec.  Have heard almost nothing about it up till now.  Is that because Legault is just cruising for re-election?

Yes, he is cruising for re-election, despite many blunders.


@GF
I didn't vote for Duhaime, so unfortunately, I couldn't chant your name this time

[viper37]

But anyways - yeah the CAQ looks to be leading with 39% support, with all the other opposition parties (Liberals, PQ, lefty Quebec Solidaire, the conservatives) polling in the teens.

CAQ - 40%.  Everyone else: 15% or so, give or take a few 0,1%.

Polls are closing now, CAQ is majority govt as per La Presse, still don't know who's the official opposition.  In all likelyhood, it will the Liberal Party with 19 ridings in Western Montreal and maybe one in Northern Quebec, but none in the francophone areas of Quebec.  Dominique Anglade, the party leader, is facing an uphill battle in her own riding.