Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

Edit: One for Tamas on the bats, who I'm glad to hear are doing well

  

[Sheilbh]

The editorial makes the correct point that British people tend to mix up conservationism with environmentalism.

Mentioned this elswhere but I think it's a bit like, what I think is a coming split between, say, a Greta Thunberg version of environmentalism (don't do anything that increases carbon now/degrowth) and an AOC/Green New Deal version (decarbonise our society by massively re-engineering it).

[crazy canuck]

I like the little holes in the greenbelts. Like some village just got stranded in there, forever trapped unable to expand and eternally isolated.

So I guess you just need to go underground and Britons can live like mole people.

Time to prepare for the inevitable Morlock infestations.

[Valmy]

The editorial makes the correct point that British people tend to mix up conservationism with environmentalism.

Mentioned this elswhere but I think it's a bit like, what I think is a coming split between, say, a Greta Thunberg version of environmentalism (don't do anything that increases carbon now/degrowth) and an AOC/Green New Deal version (decarbonise our society by massively re-engineering it).

Degrowth is a ridiculous idea, simply because no way we can get all the countries in the world to sign on. Re-engineering is the only way forward.

And I am not just saying that because I am an engineer.

[Sheilbh]

Time to prepare for the inevitable Morlock infestations.

And more importantly enshrine protecting Morlock habitats into criminal law

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure I would characterize degrowth as necessarily ridiculous.  It's proponents make some interesting points.


Give a listen to this.  Its a good discussion of the point Sheiblh was making (one suspects he might have also listened to it  )

https://www.lrb.co.uk/podcasts-and-videos/podcasts/the-lrb-podcast/green-growth-and-degrowth

[Sheilbh]

I hadn't actually but will - I saw someone on Twitter making this point and I thought it had something to it, especially in the UK (with the whole conservation thing). Then was drinking with friends and someone was very sceptical about insulation and heat pumps etc because it would require construction and carbon - then I thought it really had something to it

[Josquius]

That's just so dumb.

Though I do worry about insulations environmental impact in terms of plastic pollution. It's horrible stuff and gets everywhere when you cut it.

[Admiral Yi]

I didn't know the green belts were that fucking big.

[Sheilbh]

I didn't know the green belts were that fucking big.

Interactive map here which includes the North-East and the great North-West conurbation (broadly where I see green belt, I think there should be a metro area ):
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/green-belt-map/

But, yeah, 13% - for context 8% of land in England is for "developed use"/built on. Including half the green belt.

People here it and think it's like areas of natural beauty or other protected areas. Some of it is and deserves protection, but a lot of it is scrubland, brownfield sites, golf courses etc. And of course the irony is - as you look at the map of where things have been built - that because of the green belt more stuff is being developed in places that are actually, you know, green and properly rural

The other issue with it is that because of their size the green belts actually normally covers lots of councils so even getting them to work together is very difficult - e.g. even if Oxford City Council wasn't bad a lot of their green belt is in Cherwell, West Oxfordshire and Vale of the White Horse District Councils who are responsible for planning. So they need to work together which doesn't always happen and the voters in each probably want their bit protecting but don't particularly care about the others

[The Larch]

So many issues, at least related to residential building, would be instantly resolved if the Brits reneged on their idea that the natural residence of mankind is a detached or semi-detached 2 floor house with a tiny front and back garden.

[Sheilbh]

Brits and Irish - but Benelux and Norway low on apartments too so I wonder if there's something something North-West Europe?


But I don't think there's any evidence that we'd be better at building flats (they routinely get campaigned against too) or on even just on brownfield sites - see the Tory MP (in a London seat) boasting about helping block the development of a derelict gasworks into housing

Edit: With housing there's always a reason - in my area it's gentrification/"social cleansing", lack of affordable housing, removing "precious green space" in an urban area, increasingly hear complaints about construction's impact on net zero. But that's because I'm in a relatively inner city area with left wing politics - and when you've got all those assessments and surveys there's always something for a campaign to hang their hat on.

As he says - and I think this goes for lots of bits of the British state - lots of individually justifiable policies/requirements that, collectively, lead to sclerosis.

[Admiral Yi]

Cool map Shelf.

[Valmy]

Well Norway has like one city.

Though that doesn't explain Iceland. I guess they like to be packed together for warmth.

[Sheilbh]

Well Norway has like one city.

Though that doesn't explain Iceland. I guess they like to be packed together for warmth.

It's slightly mad. England, the Netherlands and Belgium have the highest population density in Europe (of reasonably sized countries) but absolutely will not consider apartment living