The Off Topic Topic

[Tamas]

Guys, where did I say we should eradicate languages and dialects by sword and fire?

Um, right here?

I say we should eradicate languages and dialects by sword and fire

  

    

[Sheilbh]

Guys, where did I say we should eradicate languages and dialects by sword and fire?

Um, right here?

I say we should eradicate languages and dialects by sword and fire

Tamas: history's greatest monster

[The Brain]

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Tamas, are you with God or against Him?

[Josquius]

That's a theory that that is the biggest cause. And if we are talking about ye olde days I would agree.

You say ye olde days - Russia considers Ukrainian a dialect not a language. I'd be surprised if China has ongoing tolerance for Uyghur and I wonder if Chinese languages will be standardised. All of those are arguably only possible because of the information age.

And I do mean across all time I suspect it's the biggest cause.

But it seems to me the impact of the information age is doing that on steroids in the late 20th and early 21st century. If what you say is true when why are we seeing what we are seeing in that map? Was England colonized and crushed by a brutal empire between 1950 and now?

Imperialism isn't necessarily brutal - or at least not to everyone (I suspect colonisation always is).

I don't think that map is language death, though - I think it's dialects shifting and a language evolving which always happens. They're always evolving and changing and maybe even new ones emerging which is absolutely partially shaped by non-coercive forces.

I think a language going from being alive and spoken to extinct - I suspect there's probably almost always an element of coercion and violence in that story. Though there's obviously a huge spectrum of how bad that was

Worth remembering that so much of this imperial devastation of languages didn't come from an active top town decision but rather people choosing, consciously and sub-consciously, to chase what they felt gave them the best chance. This was the major factor with the decline of Irish for instance.

Erm - maybe for some. State policy was also monolingual. Irish was discouraged by schools (funded by the state administered by the church). The areas that were most Irish-speaking were worst hit by the famine and most likely to experience emigration.

And obviously the ascendancy led to the dispossession of traditional Irish elites meaningthere was no elite setting for Irish culture, which resulted in it being perceived as a language of poverty and peasants because the spaces where it could be anything else (courts, church, literature) were systematically destroyed and often banned. There were plenty of top-down decision to wipe out and suppress the indigenous "non-British", Catholic, Irish culture - and there were similar top-down "improving" policies by the British state in relation to other Celtic languages in the 19th century. There's a reason almost every nationalist party in these isles has started with or been heavily influenced by a movement for revival of the language.

There is an element in what you're saying in the rise of English, I'm not sure if it explains the decline of Irish. My understanding is that now the view is that Ireland was probably majority Irish speaking until the early 19th century - which is when the schools are introduced.

Looking back at earlier history sure, ish. Though the language there was just a bit of a symbol for one side, it wasn't seen as a problem in itself. Languages really weren't seen as all that important.

I mean looking at the 19th century when it dropped off a cliff. You hear the same kind of warped spin on things from Welsh nationalists, always bringing up anecdotes about the Welsh not. The same school rules applied everywhere in the country. They did even when I was a kid (albeit nowhere near so strictly). Schools try to teach 'standard English' as they see it as the route to success.
In 19th century Ireland traditionally native Irish speaking families consciously switched over to English with their kids in order to give them a shot in the cities.

[Sheilbh]

Looking back at earlier history sure, ish. Though the language there was just a bit of a symbol for one side, it wasn't seen as a problem in itself. Languages really weren't seen as all that important.

I don't think that's true - though obviously symbols matter too. I think earlier periods were incredibly aware of the power of language because it was central to the Reformation. Print culture and writing in the vernacular make the Reformation possible - and it's something that's absolutely key in these isles the Welsh and Scottish Reformations in part happen from below because use of Welsh, Scots and Gaelic in preaching and pamphlets. It was something that I believe the Tudors actually tried to encourage in Ireland - I believe the first printed books in Irish are Protestant tracts, though it failed there because of politcal issues.

It's later periods: the Ascendancy and then the Victorians that really clamp down on the use of other languages. It's absolutely part of a political project - one that was also happening in colonised societies in the 18th century - in Ireland. The monoglot elite institutions and courts and avenues of redress, the armed fort town, the settlement of land and dispossession of the "native". It was a similar project and I think possibly a bit of a testbed for what the British did elsewhere, such as in the Americas - it's not a coincidence that American colonial towns were often built on the plan of Derry/Londonderry.

And I think in the 19th century people are really aware of language - it's the core of the various liberal nationalist movements: young Italy, young Hungary etc across Europe which attract huge attention and support in Victorian Britain. While the young Ireland movement is crushed as seditious, but coincides with the start of the Gaelic revival.

I mean looking at the 19th century when it dropped off a cliff. You hear the same kind of warped spin on things from Welsh nationalists, always bringing up anecdotes about the Welsh not. The same school rules applied everywhere in the country. They did even when I was a kid (albeit nowhere near so strictly). Schools try to teach 'standard English' as they see it as the route to success.
In 19th century Ireland traditionally native Irish speaking families consciously switched over to English with their kids in order to give them a shot in the cities.

It's not a warped spin - the only medium of education was English in areas that didn't speak English. That's different than a standardisation of rules within English. People were told that Irish or whatever other language was for "bog people" etc. Although there may be something to it being more voluntary in Wales or Scotland or parts of England where there was less coercion. 

But in Ireland it just seems like a hell of a coincidence that families consciously switched to English at the same time as the imperial state implements English education, and with the famine and mass emigration which hit the Irish-speaking areas disproportionately.

[Josquius]

Don't say you believe the famine as a purposeful genocide nonsense....

Irish, Welsh, etc... Being the language of rural hicks - again it's giving too much dastardly credit for the powers that be to lay this on them. There was no master plan at work at the time
They certainly had a heavy role in society developing the way it did but this embracing of standard English as the proper thing to do to get by in life was very much something that organically developed.
YMV as we get to the 20th century and they became more actively involved in recognising the potential of these subtle tools of control. But in the 19th century... Schools in English were just seen as common sense and an all round positive thing.

[Sheilbh]

Don't say you believe the famine as a purposeful genocide nonsense....

It depends what we mean by purposeful or genocide. It is less extreme and with less state violence, because it was liberal, but I think it is to British imperial liberalism what the Holodomor was to Stalinism. In large part it was driven by ideology regardless of the human cost - and to an extent the human cost was seen in official circles as almost helpful in delivering the state goal (collectivisation in USSR and reducing "overpopulation" to allow for "productive" agriculture in Ireland).

I think the comment at the time that God made the blight but the English made the famine is absolutely true.

YMV as we get to the 20th century and they became more actively involved in recognising the potential of these subtle tools of control. But in the 19th century... Schools in English were just seen as common sense and an all round positive thing.

I don't agree. I think the 19th century was the age of national identity emerging with widespread middle class print culture which was often based on language, the start of the challenge to multi-national empires within Europe and also the peak of imperialism and imperial administration. I think they were profoundly aware of the power of language as a tool of control and it was a core part of the toolbox of 19th century state building.

[Jacob]

It appears that Domino's Pizza is withdrawing from the Italian market (which they entered in 2015).

[celedhring]

It appears that Domino's Pizza is withdrawing from the Italian market (which they entered in 2015).

I'm shocked 

I mean, when I was over there this summer domestic takeaway places had some really outstanding pizza given the price, I can't see Domino's making much of a dent in that marketplace.

[Duque de Bragança]

It appears that Domino's Pizza is withdrawing from the Italian market (which they entered in 2015).

I'm shocked 

I mean, when I was over there this summer domestic takeaway places had some really outstanding pizza given the price, I can't see Domino's making much of a dent in that marketplace.

Yeah, it's not like they are needed over there.

[Syt]

 

[celedhring]

 

Has any Habsburg had any kind of success in Austrian politics?

[Razgovory]

Getting the band back together.

[Duque de Bragança]

 

Missing Transylvania/Romania 

[Valmy]

Has any Habsburg had any kind of success in Austrian politics?

No but I understand one of them is a pretty good race car driver.