Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[viper37]

I hadn't heard of this before.
Interesting story. #Russians

BBC News - What are France's accusations over a mass grave found in Mali?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61257796

there are satellite pictures showing the Russians digging holes and dropping bodies in it.

The Mali government has turned semi-hostile toward France, lately.  France is gradually leaving the area.  Not quite a debacle like Afghanistan, but still a failure.  Might have some French guys drop their superiority complex over the Americans.  Or quite likely not. 

[viper37]

The associated comment "rise in far right" is a bit disingenous.  The Front National of 1995 does not have much in common with the Rassemblement National of 2022.  It's like comparing British Tories to the Republican party because they are both conservative movements.

Zemmour's policies were pretty much aligned to 1995's FN policies and he didn't go through the second round.

Le Pen is a populist and her party proposes a lot of solution borrowed from the far left.  It probably has more in common, officially, with a socialist party of the 1970s than with any far right movement nowadays.  It's not like these pro-union parties were shining examples of multi-culturalism, social progress and tolerance.  Well, they still aren't, but they split into traditional leftist parties and neo-woke types now instead of being under the same umbrella.

Unofficially, it still attract the neo-nazis and Marine is certainly not disatisfied with this.  Just like the left, a vote is a vote, even if it's from an extremist.  I remember a time where parties, right or left, would shun at extremists and publicly denounce them and their methods.  I remember René Lévesque firmly denouncing the FLQ and those who supported the organization, especially the Rassemblement pour l'Indépendance Nationale.  I remember Stephen Harper expelling racist members from the party.  Something I can't imagine any mainstream political party doing now.  Any nutjob is bound to find a proper party and feel at home now as politicians are happily nurturing their extremism.

[viper37]

Slightly fascinating semantics response from the ongoing analysis of the Macron/Le Pen vote. Voters who say they are "in the centre" broke for Macron 87/13; voters who say they are "neither right nor left" went for Le Pen 53/47

Can you read French Sheilb?  The platform of the party is here:
https://rassemblementnational.fr/pdf/144-engagements.pdf

Anti-Europe: lots of leftist are against Europe.  Putin is very happy to support these parties, left or right.<

I'll pass on the proposed Constitutional changes, they are not important.  But such initiatives have been proposed by far left parties here in Canada.

Freedom of expression and digital freedom
Let's say this one is rightwing, for now.  Once upon a time, the left was in favour of such freedoms.  Nowadays, with the rise of cancel culture, they're no better than the average Disney cancelling Republican.

Digital nationalism.
Pretty left wing/protectionist as a proposal.  To insist that all data concerning French be stocked in France.

Defend the rights of women.
Pretty much a leftist cause if any.  The only distinction is they now target islam specifically as the main cause of women's rights regression.  But they also plan to force wage equity and fight against "social and proffesionnal precarity".  That's from a socialist textbook of the last 30 years.

Insure the respect of freedom of association
It's specifically aimed at protecting unions, especially when they commit crimes.  Again, textual socialism.

Freedom of education and forcing private schools to follow the State's curriculm
Well, the left has always ranted against private schools.


The whole program is filled with stuff like that.  It's not that the French have changed, they are still clearly aligned to the left.  But the NewFN has managed to adjust its discourse, adapt it to the reality of today's perceive injustices as felt by the left.

If you take a look at Québec Solidaire's platform, you'll see many similarities with the RN's program:
https://plateforme.quebecsolidaire.net/

Yet, there's no denying (except by them ) that they are a communist party.  They never hesitate to support scumbags and criminals, so long as they are on the right (sorry, left ) side.

[Barrister]

Hey what's up with Macron these days?

Bunch of news stories about how he's warning the west not to "humiliate" Putin, that EU membership for Ukraine will take decades, and how there needs to be a ceasefire in Ukraine (which would freeze the conflict and reward Putin).

[Duque de Bragança]

It's discussed in the EU thread. Long story short, typical Macron.

[Sheilbh]

Bit of a striking moment with Melenchon on TV recently calling German reunification an unconstitutional annexation that was conducted with unprecedented "social violence" against East Germans.

A reminder that he is, fundamentally, an unreconstructed tankie and it is probably as alarming that he is now the main force on the left in France in the same way as Le Pen is the main force on the right. Also from a British perspective seeing sensible Labour supporters get all dewy eyed about the French popular front - led by Melenchon in these elections - is another sign (as with backing Corbyn) that all the stuff about collapsing firewalls and the erosion of norms is not just an issue on the right in Europe.

I'm not convinced it's great for democracy or governance if your choices end up being hard left, hard right and then a centre who can do whatever they want - because, what are you going to do vote for the fascists or the tankies?

On a similar, but British, note absolutely thrilling to see Lutfur Rahman writing a piece in Jacobin about how he ran as an open socialist and beat the Labour party to become mayor - "the Left can win like I did: by going on the offensive". It's worth noting that Rahman was previously disqualified and banned from seeking office for five years because of electoral fraud and voter intimidation (and there's reports that, at least, the voter intimidation is back). His party is pretty much sectarian, has no women councillors (and a streak of misogyny) and a history of people making very anti-semitic remarks. It's also complicatedly tied to clan politics and political divisions in Bangladesh. Not entirely sure it's a model the democratic left should be holding up - or allowing to describe itself as primarily being about a strong socialist campaign, and holding your nose about the fraud, intimidation, sectarianism etc.

[Duque de Bragança]

Bit of a striking moment with Melenchon on TV recently calling German reunification an unconstitutional annexation that was conducted with unprecedented "social violence" against East Germans.

A reminder that he is, fundamentally, an unreconstructed tankie and it is probably as alarming that he is now the main force on the left in France in the same way as Le Pen is the main force on the right. Also from a British perspective seeing sensible Labour supporters get all dewy eyed about the French popular front - led by Melenchon in these elections - is another sign (as with backing Corbyn) that all the stuff about collapsing firewalls and the erosion of norms is not just an issue on the right in Europe.

I'm not convinced it's great for democracy or governance if your choices end up being hard left, hard right and then a centre who can do whatever they want - because, what are you going to do vote for the fascists or the tankies?

Why are you surprised? He is an admirer of Die Linke, with a pro-islamist twist.
What will you notice next? That he is the biggest "poutinolâtre" around out of "anti-imperialism"?

As for the elimination of real moderates of the mainstream political spectrum by Macron, so he can stay in power, that's WAD, perfecting Mitterand's playbook.

[crazy canuck]

I'm not convinced it's great for democracy or governance if your choices end up being hard left, hard right and then a centre who can do whatever they want - because, what are you going to do vote for the fascists or the tankies?

You have pretty much summed up the success of the liberal Part of Canada since about the 90s.  The rare times they lose elections is when the Conservatives (or whatever the right wing party is calling itself at the material time) becomes more reasonable.  When the left proposes policies that look like they might be popular the Liberals just incorporate those into their platform. 

[Sheilbh]

Although Canadian politics might be bad - I'm just not sure the Conservatives or NDP are quite at Le Pen or Melenchon levels yet

There is no possibility to my mind of even a reasonable Le Pen or Melenchon being acceptable as leading a government.

It is crazy with the popular front to see the party of Mitterand rallying behind someone with those views on German reunification. They're not unheard of - I've come across them in leftie circles. But I always think they're a mark that we may have some similarities in views but fundamentaly quite different politics.

[Duque de Bragança]

Although Canadian politics might be bad - I'm just not sure the Conservatives or NDP are quite at Le Pen or Melenchon levels yet

There is no possibility to my mind of even a reasonable Le Pen or Melenchon being acceptable as leading a government.

It is crazy with the popular front to see the party of Mitterand rallying behind someone with those views on German reunification. They're not unheard of - I've come across them in leftie circles. But I always think they're a mark that we may have some similarities in views but fundamentaly quite different politics.

 

Mitterand's party allied itself with communists back in the day, having PCF ministers in the government between 1981 and 1983.
An anti-immigration party back then.
The worst part is that communists suffered the most from the attempt of implementing a real socialist program, after 1983.

As for Mélenchon was a Trot, then PS (even minister), then LFI so that would hardly be new.
He's often described as an aparatchik in these parts, for good reason.

[crazy canuck]

Although Canadian politics might be bad - I'm just not sure the Conservatives or NDP are quite at Le Pen or Melenchon levels yet

Certainly not yet.  But on the right we are heading in that direction.  During a leadership debate last night the front runner on the right declared he would replace the Governor of the Bank of Canada - an office which is supposed to be independent of politics.  According to reports only one of the other candidates called him out on the comment.

[viper37]

I'm not convinced it's great for democracy or governance if your choices end up being hard left, hard right and then a centre who can do whatever they want - because, what are you going to do vote for the fascists or the tankies?

You have pretty much summed up the success of the liberal Part of Canada since about the 90s.  The rare times they lose elections is when the Conservatives (or whatever the right wing party is calling itself at the material time) becomes more reasonable.  When the left proposes policies that look like they might be popular the Liberals just incorporate those into their platform. 

the far left decided a while ago that they would not oppose the center left, no matter how corrupt they might be.  They helped them maintain power and shield themselves from any investigation and now they have made it official.

Jagmeet Singh has decided the role of her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is to rubber stamp wathever the governing party does, totally abdicating his role because that favors leftist policies, no matter how detrimental they can be to our society.  In other words, he is an ideologue.

[viper37]

Although Canadian politics might be bad - I'm just not sure the Conservatives or NDP are quite at Le Pen or Melenchon levels yet

According to reports only one of the other candidates called him out on the comment.

These reports are false.

[crazy canuck]

Although Canadian politics might be bad - I'm just not sure the Conservatives or NDP are quite at Le Pen or Melenchon levels yet

According to reports only one of the other candidates called him out on the comment.

These reports are false.

Good to hear.  Who else called him on his bullshit?

[Jacob]

Certainly not yet.  But on the right we are heading in that direction.  During a leadership debate last night the front runner on the right declared he would replace the Governor of the Bank of Canada - an office which is supposed to be independent of politics.  According to reports only one of the other candidates called him out on the comment.

I think two:

Charest said Poilievre's promise to fire Macklem was "irresponsible" and would make companies second-guess their investments in Canada.

After the debate, Conservative MP Leslyn Lewis said: "I don't agree that members of Parliament should be meddling in the Bank of Canada."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-leadership-debate-edmonton-1.6448477
I'm no fan of Lewis, but I give her points there as well (slightly reduced for being after the debate, but still the correct position).