Does it matter who owns art? (a version of cultural appropriation)

[CountDeMoney]

For instance Elvis ripping off black musicians was fine, he's hardly from the ruling class, though many of those who profited from him certainly deserve some ire.

Wow. Elvis ripping off black musicians.  Christ, you're all a bunch of fucking cunts.

This is a pretty well known critique. Not altogether invalid. Rocks roots in the blues are well attested. I don't see whats cunty about it?

"Ripping off" is not a critique. "Ripping off" is what makes it cunty, and you a fucking cunt.

[viper37]

The links between an Australian actor and a Danish Viking king are tenuous at best.  There isn't much cultural similarities between the two.

Some of the actors may be descendants of real people characters, but the majority was not Scandinavian. Viking culture is definitely of Scandinavian origin.  Not Canadian, even though they visited the continent.  You seem to link culture only to skin color.  Would that mean a black Scandinavian can claim no link to Viking culture because they were mostly whites?

Actors portraying fictional characters from their ancient cultural heritage. OK?

Allright.  So that means if we were to make a tv series about fictional Iroquois and fictional Hurons, we wouldn't need to bother with finding First Nations actors.  Duly noted.

Same with any adaptation of Roots.  Since Kunta Kinte is a fictional character, anyone could portray him.  It could very well be a white South African.  He'd be from Africa, so same cultural heritage?

The Rome TV series was made by the BBC.  The lead actors were British.

Italy doesn't mind. Romes heritage belongs to Europe.

Ah.  So it's about minding.  Yet, I often see lots of outrage from White people about this supposed cultural appropriation.

How is all of this different than the white kid talking thrash and making crappy music? 

Why is acting out old stories from which the original people stand in no way to profit different to ripping off less powerful folks in the here and now? Really?

I don't see modern Scandinavia has being very powerful compared to America.  It was clearly Americans taking advantage of a weaker nations culture.

Should we cancel Eminem because he's white?

Why would you do that?

Because white kids should not play rap music.  You just said so yourself it was problematic.  I don't see how being rich or not influence the general white culture to which he belonged as a kid.  He moved to a black neighborhood only in his teens.  But that does not change he can't be culturally black since he's of the wrong skin color.  According to what you just said, at least.

That some people take this concept too far doesn't mean the concept is instantly invalid.
To use your own approach back at you :so it's OK for a wealthy American to travel to a poor island cut off from the modern world, record the music of the people who live there and then sell it at home (keeping the profits of course) saying "this is mine. I invented this."
Also FYI poutine is stolen from us

I specifically gave clear examples of theft that I would consider cultural appropriation.  You argument was, however, entirely based on skin color: a rich white kid can't sing rap music, and your response pretty much confirms it, only making an exception if you like the artist, independent on his "cultural" background which really means "white".  

Culture isn't defined by the color of your skin.  Or else, a black British isn't really British.  He's just an African living in the UK.  Which pretty much happens to sum up the position of some extremist political parties.

[Sheilbh]

I recently saw the picture of a white guy sporting a tatoo with Mayan and various Polynesian inspired art.
I didn't really care.  Should I have been frustrated?

Profoundly suspicious. Obviously there are exceptions but, it's probably second only to the soul patch in signs of a probably bellend.

Cultural appropriation to me, would be if I made a sculpture similar in style to Inuit art and claim myself some bogus indigenous ancestry to sell it as genuine First Nations art.

I think that's sort of what I mean with acknowledge your sources. Don't claim it's all you - and also don't claim some deeper, often more spiritual connection with that culture by virtue of owning or making art using its aesthetics (I feel like that happens a lot), because that's not the same as actually engaging with a culture.

[Barrister]

I recently saw the picture of a white guy sporting a tatoo with Mayan and various Polynesian inspired art.
I didn't really care.  Should I have been frustrated?

Profoundly suspicious. Obviously there are exceptions but, it's probably second only to the soul patch in signs of a probably bellend.

[viper37]

For instance Elvis ripping off black musicians was fine, he's hardly from the ruling class, though many of those who profited from him certainly deserve some ire.

Wow. Elvis ripping off black musicians.  Christ, you're all a bunch of fucking cunts.

This is a pretty well known critique. Not altogether invalid. Rocks roots in the blues are well attested. I don't see whats cunty about it?

Ripping off, it's Vanilla Ice pretending to sing.

Elvis inspired himself from blues and developed a new music style.  Heavy metal didn't rip off Wagner.

This is not Elvis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9a49oFalZE

It does not have much in common with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj0Rz-uP4Mk

And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FeWJHUB8aU

is a cover of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgdzS4OSQ1M


I ain't no expert in Elvis' matters, but I don't see this as a rip off, a theft or whatever.  Motley Crue recorded their own version of Jailhouse Rock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GSftrS2g78

I don't think they were ripping off the King.  I admit I have no idea how copyrights for such stuff works.  And I can not tell you why Elvis was more popular than Roy Brown, it's out of my area of expertise.  But I don't think this song was the one that made Elvis into an icon of Rock 'n 'Roll.

[Josquius]

The links between an Australian actor and a Danish Viking king are tenuous at best.  There isn't much cultural similarities between the two.

Some of the actors may be descendants of real people characters, but the majority was not Scandinavian. Viking culture is definitely of Scandinavian origin.  Not Canadian, even though they visited the continent.  You seem to link culture only to skin color.  Would that mean a black Scandinavian can claim no link to Viking culture because they were mostly whites?

Why do you think this matters?
People have very little in common with ancestors from a few centuries gone let alone a millennium.

Allright.  So that means if we were to make a tv series about fictional Iroquois and fictional Hurons, we wouldn't need to bother with finding First Nations actors.  Duly noted.

Same with any adaptation of Roots.  Since Kunta Kinte is a fictional character, anyone could portray him.  It could very well be a white South African.  He'd be from Africa, so same cultural heritage?

Lol Wut?
I guess you think you've got some kind of a gotcha here but none of this makes any sense.

Canada conquered the native Americans. Native americans are still struggling with the ramifications of this today. This would be a perfect example of where cultural appropriation is 100% valid.

Why would a white south African be valid to play a black West African? Africa is quite large you know. Many would find fault even for casting a black Kenyan in that part let alone someone so unrelated as a white south African.

Because white kids should not play rap music.  You just said so yourself it was problematic.  I don't see how being rich or not influence the general white culture to which he belonged as a kid.  He moved to a black neighborhood only in his teens.  But that does not change he can't be culturally black since he's of the wrong skin color.  According to what you just said, at least.

Stop lying. I said nothing of the sort.
Race isn't the only factor in what makes up a person you know. Even in the particularly race obsessed US there are other aspects at play.

Ah.  So it's about minding.  Yet, I often see lots of outrage from White people about this supposed cultural appropriation.

A funny example of this I remember is when people got upset about an American museum with a try on a kimono event, which the Japanese embassy then said to "awesome. Please try more kimono!"

You seem to think the fact that idiots with zero connection sometimes misuse it, is somehow an argument that that cultural appropriation can never be a valid criticism?

I don't see modern Scandinavia has being very powerful compared to America.  It was clearly Americans taking advantage of a weaker nations culture.

1: its not their culture. Its their history. A history that the US as a North European colony shares.
2: Scandinavia is significantly better off than the US. It could be possible for Americans to rip Scandinavian culture still; getting rich making those Faroe jumpers for instance. But the chances for this are small.

I specifically gave clear examples of theft that I would consider cultural appropriation.  You argument was, however, entirely based on skin color: a rich white kid can't sing rap music, and your response pretty much confirms it, only making an exception if you like the artist, independent on his "cultural" background which really means "white

Putin would be proud of this level of projection.

Culture isn't defined by the color of your skin.  Or else, a black British isn't really British.  He's just an African living in the UK.  Which pretty much happens to sum up the position of some extremist political parties.

Odd you say this after just doing your darndest to argue otherwise....

For instance Elvis ripping off black musicians was fine, he's hardly from the ruling class, though many of those who profited from him certainly deserve some ire.

Wow. Elvis ripping off black musicians.  Christ, you're all a bunch of fucking cunts.

This is a pretty well known critique. Not altogether invalid. Rocks roots in the blues are well attested. I don't see whats cunty about it?

"Ripping off" is not a critique. "Ripping off" is what makes it cunty, and you a fucking cunt.

What pissed in your corn flakes today?
I didn't realise you were married to elvis.
Intruiging you missed the fact that I was defending him against this....

[Eddie Teach]

Incorporating ideas from other musicians is just what they do. It's rarely a ripoff.

[viper37]

I don't feel like a little white girl dressing up as Pocahontas is committing a sin either.  Even adults going to a masked party, I don't really care if they're dressed as First Nations or Ancient Egyptians.  They're not seriously pretending to be Egyptian Pharaos.

I read a book some time ago, where a people of fair skin, blue eyes and pale hairs arrived in a land where the rulers where of dark skin, brown eyes and black hair.  Due to their physical difference, they were immediately assumed to be of an inferior race cursed by the Gods and they were enslaved.

It was a bit too obvious to miss the parallel being made.

But, I kinda got myself thinking: If we remade Roots, with Black slavers and White slaves, would it be ok?  Who would be pissed off the most, the left or the right?

[viper37]

Wakanda is a fictional, highly advanced country, somewhere in Africa.
The New York Times was raving about this positive representation of Africa in a Hollywood movie.

Didn't seem to matter much back then that Africa was large. It often doesn't seem to matter that Sub-Saharan Africa is culturally very different from the lands settled by the Berbers and the Arabs.  But now, it seems suddenly really important talking about West and East and South Africa...  I think this all demonstrate the bullshit of that cultural appropriation concept.  It's an empty, meaningless concept for people who seek to be offended.  The left's version of the angry white man.

[viper37]

Why do you think this matters?
People have very little in common with ancestors from a few centuries gone let alone a millennium.

You raised the matter yourself initially.  British, Irish, Danish, Norwegians, Icelanders, Scots, Canadians, they're all the same people: Northern WHITE Europeans. But a White American can't portray a Black American, it's cultural appropriation.  There seems to definitely be something as "Black" music for you, ripped off by evil Whites, so it seems the opposite is obvious: there would be such a thing as "White" music, and we have Blacks, Asians and other cultures ripping off that "White" music.

Or does this apply only to non Whites?  There's Asian music, Polynesian music, Black Music, but the rest is just music?  You are very hard to follow in your reasoning.

Race isn't the only factor in what makes up a person you know. Even in the particularly race obsessed US there are other aspects at play.

You said you had a problem with a rich white kid from the neighborhood playing/singing gangsta rap.

Since lots of Black rappers are very rich individuals, have grown outside of city centers, in suburbs, I must assume that your problem is they are white.  But Eminem seems to be exempt from your contempt, for some weird reason.

A funny example of this I remember is when people got upset about an American museum with a try on a kimono event, which the Japanese embassy then said to "awesome. Please try more kimono!"
You seem to think the fact that idiots with zero connection sometimes misuse it, is somehow an argument that that cultural appropriation can never be a valid criticism?

A white gangsta rapper is not cultural appropriation.  Everybody is free to make crappy music.
But you obviously have a problem with this.

1: its not their culture. Its their history. A history that the US as a North European colony shares.
2: Scandinavia is significantly better off than the US. It could be possible for Americans to rip Scandinavian culture still; getting rich making those Faroe jumpers for instance. But the chances for this are small.

Culture derives from language and history.  American culture was forged by its history and its myth.  See Canadian culture for an example of what American culture would be today had they not rebelled against their legitimate rulers.  They'd be filled to the brim with very nice Queen worshipping people respectful for authority.  

American culture would have been really different if France had not lost the 7 years war.  American culture would certainly have been different without slavery and the Civil War.

Scandinavian culture is derived from their history, especially their Viking roots, it kinda shows in their modern languages.  History and culture aren't mutually exclusive concepts, you know.

Odd you say this after just doing your darndest to argue otherwise....

Now, who's making projections?  

[Josquius]

Sigh. This is where the whole anti woke cult really shows itself to be such a threat to our society.
There can be zero room for nuance or logic.
This one stupid guy once said something ridiculous about how a thing is racism when it clearly isn't hence the entire concept of racism itself must be totally invalid and anyone who dares suggest it isn't must clearly completely agree with that stupid guy. Ha. Stupid left. Team right ftw!

More relevant than the idiotic insistence an American playing a viking is somehow wrong would be the current wave of colour blind casting and the wave of triggered snowflakes from black Anne boleyn. At least try and pick a sensible example.

It's interesting you're so obsessed with race here that you specifically ignored the rich and suburban part of the equation to moan about white gangster rappers being OK- though eminem a gangster rapper? Really?

A white gangster rapper could potentially be fine. A kid from an upper class background in Rhode Island going on about his rough background on the mean streets of Compton.... Aye...
Hes obviously free to do it. There's no law against it. But it's also quite right to call him out for being inauthentic. If he is outright copying the songs of a guy who from a deprived background? Then that's where appropriation has legal ramifications.

Culture derives from language and history indeed. And the vikings are a pretty major part of Anglo history and brought lots of words to the language.
Interesting you think the poshest bit of Copenhagen is more viking than a newfoundland outport.

Wakanda is an interesting one. It COULD have been very racist given its origins and place as "generic Africa but advanced" but the producers were successfully able to put a positive spin on this representation of Africa as a whole and avoid annoying anyone.

FYI West and East Africa are different places. The people look different. Potentially more genetic diversity there than between French and Chinese people. The people from the two often remark on this (hell. I have one Kenyan friend whose friends at home mockingly call him Sudanese because of his looks). White South Africans are obviously completely different again.

[Sheilbh]

*snip*

Indeed.

[Barrister]

*snip*

Indeed.

Trudeau has gotten flack for the tattoo in the past.  It's unclear who did the work (whether it was a Haida, or at least First Nations, tattoo artist), it's based on another work of art and he didn't get permission to use it.  But then again the kind of people who tend to care about such things are more likely to be Liberal voters anyways.

And besides, they've already forgiven him for:



and

[Sheilbh]

To be honest it does all add up to a particular type of person you meet on your gap year

[Razgovory]

I have no problem with what Barrister did or has ever done.  Even what he did during that hiking trip back in 2002.