Does it matter who owns art? (a version of cultural appropriation)

[Jacob]

OK, isn't that what we are doing - deciding what seems most reasonable?

Yup.

[Razgovory]

How do you know what the majority voice is?

[Jacob]

This goe for those whose "projected preferred position" is that we should define various groups by their identity and where they sit on the oppression hierarchy as well.

That is very much a two way street. Assuming that the vocal minority has a point is just as likely to be coming from preferred position as assuming they do not.

I think that typically the assumption is that "for every person who writes in to say something, there's X more at home who agree" across customer relations, politics, reviews and so on - including public sentiment. Obviously in this day an age, plenty of people are committed to making a few voices seem like they represent a majority and we should be aware of that.

If a number of voices from a community says [something], and none say not-[something], then I think absent any other context or counter-indications the reasonable position is to assume [something] is a good representation of the community's sentiment.

As for the topic at hand'm just going on what Raz said - that Somalis were dissatisfied with how they were represented in Blackhawk Down - and taking it at face value. If that's not true - or, say, if all the Somalis you've talked to have told you they truly don't give a fuck, or that they think the movie is great and spot on, or whatever; or if I dunno the Ambassador from Somalia said "that's really great, good job" - that's absolutely legitimate. Maybe Raz was wrong, or overstated things a bit, and the number of Somalis expressing dissatisfaction at the portrayal in Black Hawk Down was really quite low or non-existent. If so, that's cool.

But if Raz was right and a non-trivial amount of Somali voices weighed in on the matter, and the majority said some variation of "the way you portrayed Somalis kind of sucks", then I think the reasonable thing is to ask "how do we make it not suck next time."

[Jacob]

How do you know what the majority voice is?

You're the one who made the statement that Somalis complained about it. I believed you.

[Razgovory]

I can only speak for the Somalis interviewed for the news story I read over a decade ago.  The article also mentioned that the Somalis in the theater cheered when the helicopter was shot down.  So there's that.  Whether or not that is the opinion of the majority, or even if "Somali" is right group to even be talking about, is not clear to me.

[Jacob]

I can only speak for the Somalis interviewed for the news story I read over a decade ago.  The article also mentioned that the Somalis in the theater cheered when the helicopter was shot down.  So there's that.  Whether or not that is the opinion of the majority, or even if "Somali" is right group to even be talking about, is not clear to me.

I see.

I guess there isn't much to talk about then.

[Eddie Teach]

I'd venture to say the majority of Somalis don't give a shit if American actors portray them in American movies.

[Admiral Yi]

Why should I care whether the Somalis in Black Hawk Down were played by Somalis or not? 

[The Brain]

I remember thinking it unusual that one of the Somali lieutenants in Black Hawk Down looked to my untrained eye to be from West Africa somewhere. At least not from Somalia. But I have no idea if the character was based on a real person or not, and if so what that person looked like or was from. And the citizenship of the actor of course I have no idea of, and that seems to me to be completely uninteresting.

[Berkut]

How do you know what the majority voice is?

You're the one who made the statement that Somalis complained about it. I believed you.

I guess me perspective is that "Somalis complained about it" isn't really that interesting.

I think for any movie that portrays some other nationality or ethnicity, it is 100% the case that you can find someone who will complain about how they were portrayed. I mean that literally.

Name me a movie that has a group of people who are the antagonists and are largely represented in that movie, and I can assure you there are people who think they were not fairly portrayed.

And you know what? 99% of the time, they are almost certainly correct. 

Goodfellas doe not portray Italian Americans correctly. They complained about it (and every other mob movie). I am sure there are Germans who think they got a shitty representation in Saving Private Ryan, and as someone who knows something about WW2, I can pick apart any number of things that *could* be considered unfair and detrimental.

Southerners probably hate how they were portrayed in Django Unchained, and Northerners think Gone With the Wind gave them a bad showing.

THe thing is, they are all (in some sense) correct. Because that is the nature of story telling - it is an exercise in entertainment constrained by the medium where the intent is not to be a documentary on the cultural nuances of some ethnic or national group, but rather an exciting action flick about American soldiers, told from an American perspective, with an American audience in mind.

Now, that doesn't mean they cannot be mindful of the impacts of that portrayal, but how mindful should they be? Should they make the movie a less entertaining movie in order to spend some more time showing how Somali's are not what we think? Maybe - I think that is a choice for those who make the movie, but I don't think it is clear at all that they ought to risk making a worse movie, because even if they do - I am still 100% certain someone could go find some Somalis who will say they didn't like the way they were portrayed.

So yeah, I guess I am saying that I don't agree that "we should listen" just because someone, somewhere, went and asked a Somali what they thought of how Somali's were portrayed. Because that doesn't actually give us any information. We know before we ask that question that we can and will find some people who will answer that the portrayal was not as good as it could have been, because making the portrayal as good as it can be is not the intent of Black Hawk Down, and it is human nature to bitch about how your group is represented.

[Berkut]

I remember thinking it unusual that one of the Somali lieutenants in Black Hawk Down looked to my untrained eye to be from West Africa somewhere. At least not from Somalia. But I have no idea if the character was based on a real person or not, and if so what that person looked like or was from. And the citizenship of the actor of course I have no idea of, and that seems to me to be completely uninteresting.

I think you have to have a somewhat trained eye to even note that.

I sure as hell have zero idea what would distinguish some person being from West Africa versus East Africa. 

I doubt I could tell someone from Eastern Europe from Western, for that matter.

[Threviel]

There are far far far far far far greater differences between peoples in Africa than in Europe. It is normally relatively easy to se the general difference between Africans living on the Horn to Africans living on the Guinean Coast (or elsewhere).

Compare for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_people.

On the other hand there are for example bantus living in Somalia, they might not be so easy to distinguish from west africans.

[Berkut]

I don't dispute that those differences exist, I am just totally ignorant of them. I mean it's a really fucking big continent after all.

But like you said, people move around and such.

[grumbler]

I'd venture to say the majority of Somalis don't give a shit if American actors portray them in American movies.

Actually, they were British actors for the most part.

[Razgovory]

How do you know what the majority voice is?

You're the one who made the statement+20 that Somalis complained about it. I believed you.

All such complaints are going to be made by a minority.  You can't interview the majority.  The majority can't complain about cultural appropriation because the majority can't be in the same place at one time.