Does it matter who owns art? (a version of cultural appropriation)

[Solmyr]

A good case can be made when a country is ravaged by war and instability.  And many of these countries, at the time where this art was picked by Europeans and their museums, were in such a state.  I am totally uncertain that any art should be given back to Afghanistan if we own it in our vaults.  But what do we do if we have given back art to a country and a new government comes in and declares such art heretical and wants to destroy it?

What if we keep the art and then a new government comes in here and declares such art heretical/perverted/too liberal and wants to destroy it?

[garbon]

A good case can be made when a country is ravaged by war and instability.  And many of these countries, at the time where this art was picked by Europeans and their museums, were in such a state.  I am totally uncertain that any art should be given back to Afghanistan if we own it in our vaults.  But what do we do if we have given back art to a country and a new government comes in and declares such art heretical and wants to destroy it?

What if we keep the art and then a new government comes in here and declares such art heretical/perverted/too liberal and wants to destroy it?

Perhaps we could look at the last time such iconoclasm was permitted in each of the countries in question. Not a perfect guide to future occurrence, but surely better than pretending all situations are the same.

[crazy canuck]

Considering that owning art is difficult to distinguish from "displaying" art, it does matter a great deal - for reasons BB alluded to. Displaying art is telling a story, and this entails a degree of control from the person telling that story. Public institutions (or minimally public-facing institutions) can at least enable multiple stakeholders to have a voice through a variety of mechanism. Private collectors can usually dictate the terms.

Art, or esthetic objects of all sorts, have been traded forever, including to people outside one's own group. The difficulty, when it comes to the 19th century, is to figure out what where the transactions that were "free-ish" and which ones were more coerced by material or political difficulties and circumstances. Many flatten out all transactions into "colonial extractions": it seems evident when clearly sacred objects were sold by groups (or even individuals, unauthorized to do so) under duress. The case is much less clear say, in the case of tourist art of the 19th century, which Haudenosaunee or Mi'kmaq artists clearly produced to sell white tourists.

The article itself seems to be more of a critique of art as a commodity rather than, as BB put crudely put it, White people owning Black art.

[viper37]

A good case can be made when a country is ravaged by war and instability.  And many of these countries, at the time where this art was picked by Europeans and their museums, were in such a state.  I am totally uncertain that any art should be given back to Afghanistan if we own it in our vaults.  But what do we do if we have given back art to a country and a new government comes in and declares such art heretical and wants to destroy it?

What if we keep the art and then a new government comes in here and declares such art heretical/perverted/too liberal and wants to destroy it?

The probability of that happening in an occidental country is much lower than for this to happen in Afghanistan.

[Savonarola]

Creating art influenced from other cultures-> It depends how its done, punching up/punching down and all that.

Is this punching up or punching down



 

[Jacob]

Punching up/ down and cultural appropriation are different things. I don't see any benefit from conflating the two.

[Savonarola]

As far as the original article, most art does not appreciate in value.  Some big names will (such as Basquiat referred to in the article), but almost never at the rate that the stock market does.  Don Thomson explores this (and other quirks of the art market) in his book The Twelve Million Dollar Shark.  Even a collector who buys art as an investment almost certainly appreciates the art he is buying; otherwise he would have been better off buying stocks.

[Josquius]

Punching up/ down and cultural appropriation are different things. I don't see any benefit from conflating the two.

They're related.
Cultural appropriation is when someone from a powerful group copies and profits from the work of those from a less powerful group.

Someone from a less powerful group imitating the more powerful group though... If there's a problem there it's a very different one.

Power dynamics is a key part of it.

[Razgovory]

Groups need explicit power levels and defined parameters.  Can African-Americans adopt cultural paraphernalia from Somalis?  Should "Somalis" be one discrete group or many?  How do you get permission?  A system of cultural and racial systemization and copyrights is in order.

I was once told that Christians culturally appropriated Christmas from the Romans.  Upon hearing that I was immediately sickened and have been haunted by that encounter ever since.

[Solmyr]

A good case can be made when a country is ravaged by war and instability.  And many of these countries, at the time where this art was picked by Europeans and their museums, were in such a state.  I am totally uncertain that any art should be given back to Afghanistan if we own it in our vaults.  But what do we do if we have given back art to a country and a new government comes in and declares such art heretical and wants to destroy it?

What if we keep the art and then a new government comes in here and declares such art heretical/perverted/too liberal and wants to destroy it?

The probability of that happening in an occidental country is much lower than for this to happen in Afghanistan.

We'll see what happens when the Fuhrer comes to power in the US in 2024.

Also, are we only talking about Afghanistan here? What about, say, Egypt? Or Kenya? Or India?

[Josquius]

Groups need explicit power levels and defined parameters.  Can African-Americans adopt cultural paraphernalia from Somalis?  Should "Somalis" be one discrete group or many?  How do you get permission?  A system of cultural and racial systemization and copyrights is in order.

I was once told that Christians culturally appropriated Christmas from the Romans.  Upon hearing that I was immediately sickened and have been haunted by that encounter ever since.

That's just the thing that right wingers fail to get about this sort of thing. It's not hard science. There's no hierarchy of oppression where a black disabled lesbian is instantly always right.
A lot of it is very case by case and heavily situational.

In your example Somalis and African Americans have pretty much nothing to do with each other so I can't see any issue in general- though if it's a black American guy profiting off the work of Somalis with nothing going to the Somalis then it's definitely possible.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't think Raz is a right-winger.

[Josquius]

I don't think Raz is a right-winger.

Are you sure? I remember him being centre right.

But anyway, I was referring to what he said there rather than anything about his beliefs in general, non right people just following the right wing view is again a problem.
The right's spin on these things ("its not real") has become the established understanding as its hardly the most important thing in the world and its such a easier slant  to take than the far more complicated and muddy "It depends" left wing version.
In particular I've seen groups like Praguer U really keen to try and fit intersectionality into a right wing world view of rules and hierarchies in order to whip up anger and rejection.

[viper37]

Also, are we only talking about Afghanistan here? What about, say, Egypt? Or Kenya? Or India?

We already know the Republicans are indexing books and retiring them from public libraries and such.  But so far, they haven't gone into book burning territory.

I was specifically talking about Afghanistan, but other countries are there in the list too.  Occidental museums are very reluctant to give back the stuff they've collected over the years.  You can add Greece in the list too.

I do not have a firm opinion on the subject, nor do I think I'm qualified enough to have one.

[viper37]

I was once told that Christians culturally appropriated Christmas from the Romans.  Upon hearing that I was immediately sickened and have been haunted by that encounter ever since.

Halloween is a Pagan festival.  You should not eat candies at all during Fall, to be on the safe side.

Christians, and likely Muslim and Jews too, appropriated a lot of things from the pagan cultures that preceded them.