Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[The Larch]

I can't recall the name of the book, but one I read talked about the Soviet atrocities against civilians (mostly Germans) in Poland and eastern German (which became Polish).  The surprising part for me was that the atrocities were carried out not by the front-line troops that captured the towns and took the losses - they were disciplined except when it came to booze and when drunk - but by the second-echelon units that lacked discipline and the self-respect that comes from risking your life for your buddies. 

IIRC Beevor mentions that in "Berlin", about how the Soviet front line units actually warned civilians of the areas they crossed against their comrades from the following waves, which were the ones that committed the lion's share of the raping and looting.

[Sheilbh]

Well our perspectives are different, right? I think continental Europeans are much more likely to view Germany as being a leading state because...Germany has always been a leading power in continental Europe. Germany's shift after WWII (which the Western Allies absolutely favored) to being an economic power with no teeth otherwise is a major historical anomaly. The reality is that anomaly may simply no longer be viable.

The UK has always been a bit apart of that, with closer economic and social ties to Europe but much closer military ties to the United States, and the United States obviously despite how big and powerful Germany is...is yet moreso big and powerful so I think has a different perspective in understanding the competing interests Germany has. Most sober American analysts think Germany and a few other European great powers need to step up, but are also quite aware that the United States is fairly unique in being positioned to spent $750bn/yr on a globe-spanning military force.

I agree. I think there's also a lot of built up anger of, to nick Robert Conquest's line about the Soviet Union, the "I told you so, you fucking fools" variety from Eastern European countries.

The frustration from French commentators is the thing I find really interesting. Former ambassadors talking about the "hardcore realism" of German policy, thinktankers who are close to Macron's government suggesting that Scholz's shift was primarily cosmetic to allow Germany to block future measures against Russia and that they overestimated the policy shift. That sort of cynicism I haven't seen from any commentators in the US or UK - it's really striking.

I can't recall the name of the book, but one I read talked about the Soviet atrocities against civilians (mostly Germans) in Poland and eastern German (which became Polish). 

Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder? (Haven't read it just remember it coming out so could be way off)

[Tamas]

The surprising part for me was that the atrocities were carried out not by the front-line troops that captured the towns and took the losses - they were disciplined except when it came to booze and when drunk - but by the second-echelon units that lacked discipline and the self-respect that comes from risking your life for your buddies.

This matches exactly my grandparents' stories. They had good opinions on front line Russians, officers especially, especially when compared to the vile horde that descended upon them with the second-line soldiers.

[FunkMonk]

Ivan's War is a good book on the Red Army during WW II. Certainly highlights the atrocities committed by them:

https://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life-Death-1939-1945/dp/0312426526?ref_=d6k_applink_bb_dls

[Zanza]

Regarding this, I just read that the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany has been relentless in badgering German politicians  and media (to insulting points) about Germany not doing enough to help Ukraine. What's the opinion over there about this?

He is controversial. As he is very vocal and generates headlines, he is a media darling of course. Whether he is actually effective in furthering Ukrainian interests in Germany is less clear to me. In the end, he has to convince Scholz. And Scholz has a very different style than Melnyk's boastful indiscrete approach.

[DGuller]

I'm amazed at Zelensky's in-your-face style.  He denounces the cowardliness of European politicians to their faces, and at the end of the denunciation the cowards give him a standing ovation for a good speech well-delivered.  I think on balance he probably got more out of Europe that way that he would've with a more deferential approach.

[Zanza]

As far as French thinkers are concerned, I guess they are frustrated that Germany is tepid on their grandiose ideas of strategic autonomy of a Europe led by France and bankrolled by Germany.  Too bad for them. Might look completely different in two weeks anyway...

On whether Germany is just pretending to have shifted course, I feel it is genuine from Scholz, Baerbock, Habeck, Lindner. But they have definitely not convinced all of their backbenchers yet. Unlikely that they can. They need to rely on the opposition Conservatives there, but they are starting to play political games.

[grumbler]

Ivan's War is a good book on the Red Army during WW II. Certainly highlights the atrocities committed by them:

https://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life-Death-1939-1945/dp/0312426526?ref_=d6k_applink_bb_dls

That's the one.  Thanks.  Not an easy read, but an excellent one.  The differences between the soldiers' memories and what they had written in letters at the time was striking.

[DGuller]

Wow, Russian women can be pretty chill.  One of them on a recorded phone call gave an okay to her husband to rape Ukrainian women, just as long as he used protection.  Lots of giggling by both parties had been had.

https://mobile.twitter.com/garbanzo0813/status/1513882209349947396

[FunkMonk]

Ivan's War is a good book on the Red Army during WW II. Certainly highlights the atrocities committed by them:

https://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life-Death-1939-1945/dp/0312426526?ref_=d6k_applink_bb_dls

That's the one.  Thanks.  Not an easy read, but an excellent one.  The differences between the soldiers' memories and what they had written in letters at the time was striking.

Absolutely. Had a feeling it was what you were referring to.

But yeah, bit of a downer read even if it is an excellent study of Soviet soldiers, the myths surrounding them, and their own recollections.

[celedhring]

Catalan regional TV has this reporter that's been reporting from behind the Russian lines (Donbass) all war, and yesterday he made it to Mariupol.

https://www.ccma.cat/tv3/alacarta/telenoticies/el-setge-de-mariupol-des-de-dins-lenviat-especial-de-tv3-entra-al-que-segurament-es-el-pitjor-escenari-de-la-guerra/video/6153781/?ext=SMA_WP_F4_CE24_

(I hope it's not geolocked).

It's in Catalan so you won't understand shit (except maybe DGuller, since all the interviews are in Russian - and I presume Ukrainian I can't tell the difference). He has a few clips from the quisling mayor, although he doesn't say anything of consequence. Also some clips from inside the bombed theater (warning: charred corpses). The reporter says he overheard intense fighting while he was there.

Obviously the guy only reports what the Russians let him see (on twitter he says there's lots of stuff he has seen that he hasn't been able to tape), but even still it's pretty hellish. No water or power. People burying their family in their yards, hundreds of homeless people. The interviewees are desperate but overall fairly demure, since there are always Russian soldiers around, but you can see they are... not very fond of being "saved" this way.

[Admiral Yi]

Tonto speaks Russian too.

[Josephus]

Wow, Russian women can be pretty chill.  One of them on a recorded phone call gave an okay to her husband to rape Ukrainian women, just as long as he used protection.  Lots of giggling by both parties had been had.

https://mobile.twitter.com/garbanzo0813/status/1513882209349947396

That's why they make the bulk of prostitutes here in the west.

[Duque de Bragança]

Catalan regional TV has this reporter that's been reporting from behind the Russian lines (Donbass) all war, and yesterday he made it to Mariupol.

https://www.ccma.cat/tv3/alacarta/telenoticies/el-setge-de-mariupol-des-de-dins-lenviat-especial-de-tv3-entra-al-que-segurament-es-el-pitjor-escenari-de-la-guerra/video/6153781/?ext=SMA_WP_F4_CE24_

(I hope it's not geolocked).

It's in Catalan so you won't understand shit (except maybe DGuller, since all the interviews are in Russian - and I presume Ukrainian I can't tell the difference). He has a few clips from the quisling mayor, although he doesn't say anything of consequence. Also some clips from inside the bombed theater (warning: charred corpses). The reporter says he overheard intense fighting while he was there.

Obviously the guy only reports what the Russians let him see (on twitter he says there's lots of stuff he has seen that he hasn't been able to tape), but even still it's pretty hellish. No water or power. People burying their family in their yards, hundreds of homeless people. The interviewees are desperate but overall fairly demure, since there are always Russian soldiers around, but you can see they are... not very fond of being "saved" this way.

That's not too hard to get the most of it for a Lusophone. Namely with some Castilian notions (alcalde exists in Portuguese but is archaic). Stress is closer than, say, Italian.
French helps a bit but mostly those who actually speak Occitan not those who insist on using chocolatines for pains au chocolat.
Good idea to subtitle, Spain is mostly a dubbing country, even Catalonia but some exception is there for news, at least here.

[DGuller]

Is it just me, or did LinkedIn become the cesspool of Russian propaganda?  Or is it just selection bias, because I don't even dare venture anywhere else?