Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Habbaku]

Yeah Threviel - I agree that Europe needs to plan for the case where the US elects Trump and Trump moves to support Russia over Ukraine. But I'm not sure I understand your special animus against Germany here.

Trump wouldn't be supporting Russia vs Ukraine. Trump was supplying Javelins and other nasty equipment to Ukraine when he was in office. I'd bet that he'd would be a lot faster in getting US armaments to Ukraine than it seems things are going now.

This is the sort of idiotic talking point that's going around in GOP circles, I assume. Because it has a veneer of reality while ignoring literally every detail possible about what happened.

[Admiral Yi]

This is the sort of idiotic talking point that's going around in GOP circles, I assume. Because it has a veneer of reality while ignoring literally every detail possible about what happened.

In the glass is 1/10 full department, it is a vast improvement on Tucker Carlson's "Putin is not so bad" line.

[Zanza]

The point the critics make is that Germany did not in its policies or rhetoric show much sympathy with allowing Euro-countries to adjust slowly following fiscal mistakes made by their previous governments and the level of recession (in the case of Greece, a depression) imposed on those countries by Eurozone policies are a magnitude larger than what Germany would face if it moved off Russian oil and gas.

The difference is power. Germany (and its allies) could force e.g. Greece to accept the harsh policies. The rest of Europe can't really force Germany to stop using Russian fossil fuels.

[Admiral Yi]

Germany (and its allies) didn't force Greece to do anything.  They offered Greece a bailout with strings attached.  Greece was free to not accept the bailout.  There was no coercion.

[Zanza]

Perhaps I'm imagining things, but there are a lot of anecdotal accounts of Germany in particular saying no to further measures.

Germany is definitely less inclined than others, but not alone in that either. That said, maybe the rest of the EU should just do harsher sanctions already. Only about  30% of the Russian gas flows to Germany and Germany wants to reduce that significantly. If the other 70% stop completely, that would certainly cover 80+% of Russian gas export.

So yeah, perhaps harsh measures can be taken on Hungary.

It would not be Germany that blocks Article 7 TEU proceedings against Hungary.

[Threviel]

It's not that Trump wouldn't support Ukraine, he might. It's that he, or any other retard republican, is so unpredictable. The US cannot be trusted, any help from there is a bonus. It's just too unpredictable.

[Razgovory]

Yeah Threviel - I agree that Europe needs to plan for the case where the US elects Trump and Trump moves to support Russia over Ukraine. But I'm not sure I understand your special animus against Germany here.

Trump wouldn't be supporting Russia vs Ukraine. Trump was supplying Javelins and other nasty equipment to Ukraine when he was in office. I'd bet that he'd would be a lot faster in getting US armaments to Ukraine than it seems things are going now.

The US was supplying Javelins.  Trump was actively interfering with it.  That is why he was impeached.

[Sheilbh]

I linked about this before.  Little tiny drones that you fly into a vehicle or position and it explodes.  The US is sending a bunch.

Maybe - I think this might be different actually because just reading the press (this was only announced today) they're now referring to them as "loitering" munitions. Suicide drones that hover above the battlefield - I've no idea what any of this means but it sounds helpful (though, sadly, probably no bayraktar).

Wider economic support announced today too which is good - and quite nice video by the Ukrainian MoD of Johnson and Zelensky doing a walkabout in Kyiv - waving and chatting to people. Unimaginable a few weeks ago so a sign of Ukraine's resistance so far.

[Duque de Bragança]

Also, since it's the best European air plane we ought to pay for a few hundred Saab Gripens to Ukraine.

It's not?

I mean, it beats the Typhoon on bang-for-the-buck score, and we'd probably be better off sending 100 Gripens than 50 Typhoons, but not in capability.

That one might have been a bit tongue-in-cheek. But Gripen has a production line, so if we want to send western planes it's a candidate. I don't know if there is any other plane building in Europe (aside from F-35).

  
There's the Rafale.

[Tamas]

It's not that Trump wouldn't support Ukraine, he might. It's that he, or any other retard republican, is so unpredictable. The US cannot be trusted, any help from there is a bonus. It's just too unpredictable.

Exactly. I can just as easily imagine Trump sending in troops to fight Russia as cutting all aid and support.

[Threviel]

Also, since it's the best European air plane we ought to pay for a few hundred Saab Gripens to Ukraine.

It's not?

I mean, it beats the Typhoon on bang-for-the-buck score, and we'd probably be better off sending 100 Gripens than 50 Typhoons, but not in capability.

That one might have been a bit tongue-in-cheek. But Gripen has a production line, so if we want to send western planes it's a candidate. I don't know if there is any other plane building in Europe (aside from F-35).

  
There's the Rafale.

Great, 200 froggie planes and a dozen Gripens would make a formidable air force, only exceeded by a 13+ Gripen air force.

In all seriousness we better crank up the production tempo, a dozen or two of any western plane would blow the orcs right out of the sky.

[Josquius]

What's with this orcs slur?
I've seen it popping up on reddit too and leading to lots of deleted posts and bans from the Ukraine sub.

[Tonitrus]

What's with this orcs slur?
I've seen it popping up on reddit too and leading to lots of deleted posts and bans from the Ukraine sub.

Probably from this:



I've seen it in some of the Russian anti-Putin/oppositionist circles.

[Sheilbh]

The Bayraktar song also calls Russian "bandits" orcs.

[Tonitrus]

I've seen it in some of the Russian anti-Putin/oppositionist circles.

Most notably, in association with Alexander Nevzorov (as a Russian student, a really great guy to listen to for some esoteric vocabulary...kind of a Russian William F. Buckley Jr. when it comes to elocution).  He had a recent piece on Youtube responding to the Russian  idea that "our boys wouldn't have committed those crimes in Bucha!" with some quotes from the memoirs of Soviet troops of what they did/saw as they entered Germany towards the close of WW2.