Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Syt]

Russian soldiers are allowed to accept gifts of food from civilians? In Sweden even rent cops aren't allowed to eat food gifts. If the Russians themselves don't give a fuck then why should anyone else.

I am sure they will figure in a short time to have civilians taste them before accepting them, as in sharing.

Well, the smarter cake makers may be familiar with the witch's strategy from Snow White.

[grumbler]

Good thing those dead hand-tied civilians didn't lose their protected status.



I understand that actions like this poisoning will bring Russian soldiers down even harder on civilians. But I don't really subscribe this notion of a noble war. It's not a fucking sports event. If you are rightfully defending your own and your loved ones' life and safety against deadly and unprovoked aggression, then you are allowed to do that by whatever means necessary. If you are not (for example, you are a Russian soldier in Ukraine), then you have no business of being there and killing people, and carry the blame for whatever the hell is happening to you.

Again, from a practical point of view, it can be debated whether poisoning occupation forces is a net benefit to the struggle of getting rid of them (making the occupation a living hell vs. making them even more cruel), but from a moral or even from a so called legal way (lol) there should be no question.

There has always been a debate about whether the Geneva Conventions really mean anything other than some feelgood posturing on the part of some of the participants, so you are not alone in believing that there should be no rules in war.

I'm just pointing out that the Ukrainian government, whether for cynical reasons as you propose or not, signed them and should, if they want to remain at least technically compliant, discourage civilians from violating them.  In the war for public opinion, following the LoAC probably counts for something even if, as you postulate, war should be without any rules at all.

Of course, you cannot be outraged when Russia violates the LoAC if you are not when Ukraine violates them.

[DGuller]

I personally think it matters who violated the rules in a material way first.  I never subscribed to the notion that hitting back makes you as bad as the person who hit you first.  It just makes you someone with survival instinct.  There isn't a simple crime of "hitting", there is a crime of "hitting first" and a separate crime of "hitting second", with the first being far more serious.

I think there is a debate to be had as to whether pragmatically it's advantageous for Ukraine to violate the rules of war even if Russia grossly violates them.  I can see how for PR reasons Ukraine may still be better off being a saint, as PR is Ukraine's most potent weapon.  However, the main reason for rules of war to exist is because things get shittier for everyone the more total the war becomes, so the threat of responding in kind is the primary motivator for not stooping to the lower level.  If you remove that threat, you also remove the incentive to not initiate the escalation down.

[crazy canuck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9KZuYbOjuI

Russian soldiers poisoned by gifts of food from Ukrainian civilians.  Two dead.

Pretty dodgy and not such a good idea.

Yeah, I agree.  If such tactics continue, at some point the Russians may start targeting civilians.

If such attacks continue, then the civilians lose their protected status under the Law of Armed Conflict (this is known as "perfidy").  Noncombatants are noncombatants even if the Russians are committing war crimes. The Ukrainian government needs to tell their people this, not encourage them to sacrifice their protected status.

What is the point of a protected status if the invading forces don't recognize that protection?

[The Brain]

Apart from any other considerations (which are numerous), I think it's both unsound and unrealistic to hold civilians to the same standard as soldiers when it comes to "rules of war". I expect more from soldiers than I do from civilians.

[Tamas]

Apart from any other considerations (which are numerous), I think it's both unsound and unrealistic to hold civilians to the same standard as soldiers when it comes to "rules of war". I expect more from soldiers than I do from civilians.

I was gonna' ask: Are civilians expected to hold to the Geneva Convention? Aren't countries who signed it then should educate their citizens in it?

[Josephus]

As a civilian, it's your duty to protect your country against invaders. And that means killing them by any means available. We laud WW2 resisters in occupied Europe. They killed Germans. This is the same.

[Razgovory]

I wasn't happy when ISIS or the Taliban committed crimes in the name of resistance, so I shouldn't be happy when the Ukrainians do the same thing.

[Josquius]

I wasn't happy when ISIS or the Taliban committed crimes in the name of resistance, so I shouldn't be happy when the Ukrainians do the same thing.

Daesh and Co made little distinction between killing civilians and the foreign invaders. They saw it as acceptable to kill a few dozen local kids if an American or two was killed also.
This kind of behaviour from Ukrainians wouldn't be cool. But guerilla warfare? You go guys.

[Razgovory]

I wasn't happy when ISIS or the Taliban committed crimes in the name of resistance, so I shouldn't be happy when the Ukrainians do the same thing.

Daesh and Co made little distinction between killing civilians and the foreign invaders. They saw it as acceptable to kill a few dozen local kids if an American or two was killed also.
This kind of behaviour from Ukrainians wouldn't be cool. But guerilla warfare? You go guys.

Poisoning?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I don't really have an issue with it - no more than I would with Ukrainian civilians setting booby traps or anything similar. It's a war of national independence after all.

Although I don't mind being a hypocrite/inconsistent.

[Josquius]

I wasn't happy when ISIS or the Taliban committed crimes in the name of resistance, so I shouldn't be happy when the Ukrainians do the same thing.

Daesh and Co made little distinction between killing civilians and the foreign invaders. They saw it as acceptable to kill a few dozen local kids if an American or two was killed also.
This kind of behaviour from Ukrainians wouldn't be cool. But guerilla warfare? You go guys.

Poisoning?

If Daesh had poisoned an American base's KFC and killed a few American troops with no civilian casualties then that would be a lot more sympathetic than their actual behaviour.

[HVC]

It's the poisoning aspect that seems iffy to me. Shooting Russians, making incendiaries , go for it. A lot of the Russians are just hoodwinked kids. An 18 year old kid taking some food offered from an old lady only to be poisoned seems... I don't know, off.

But you know what, it not my country and I most likely would feel different if it was.

[Josquius]

It's the poisoning aspect that seems iffy to me. Shooting Russians, making incendiaries , go for it. A lot of the Russians are just hoodwinked kids. An 18 year old kid taking some food offered from an old lady only to be poisoned seems... I don't know, off.

But you know what, it not my country and I most likely would feel different if it was.

It is sad there's no way to distinguish the poor victim conscripts from the mass murdering rapist soldiers but how is it different there between poison or a sniper?

The only slight iffy point in it for me is the possible hearts and minds implications. Russian troops sitting down with a little old Ukranian lady and realising she is just like their grandmother and their being here is ruining her life.... Ukraine did seem to be making good ground in that kind of area.

[Sheilbh]

The only slight iffy point in it for me is the possible hearts and minds implications. Russian troops sitting down with a little old Ukranian lady and realising she is just like their grandmother and their being here is ruining her life.... Ukraine did seem to be making good ground in that kind of area.

Their grandmother poisoned invaders and hid partisans - so it is still just like her.

As I say I'll never fully get how a country whose entire modern identity is grounded in Soviet (including Ukrainian) resistance to an invasion thought an invasion of Ukraine would be easy