Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's interesting you guys keep talking about what you have "time" to do, nowhere in my statement do I mention time. I say choosing to care about this is a bad choice, that's not the same thing as saying "you don't have time to care." I'm saying you should not care, period. Not that you should not care because you only have time to care about other things.

[Berkut]

I think we should absolutely care about the rule of law and maintaining our ideals around freedom and liberty for individuals.

Not to mention resisting the urge to engage in tribal, petty emotional bigotry that leads to shit like rounding up American citizens of Japanese decent and "legally" putting them into internment camps.

[Solmyr]

Otto would feel right at home in Putin's Russia, with his us vs. them mentality.

[Admiral Yi]

It's interesting you guys keep talking about what you have "time" to do, nowhere in my statement do I mention time. I say choosing to care about this is a bad choice, that's not the same thing as saying "you don't have time to care." I'm saying you should not care, period. Not that you should not care because you only have time to care about other things.

You said choosing over.  One or the other.  Has to be time or something else.

[The Minsky Moment]

Freedom and liberty includes the freedom of the concert venue to cancel a performance or choose who to schedule or not to schedule.  Is it unfair to the perfomer?  Maybe but that is a risk of a career based on getting members of the general public to pay money to see you perform.    (eg last I checked people weren't flocking to see performances by pro-regime Iranian musicians either).

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's interesting you guys keep talking about what you have "time" to do, nowhere in my statement do I mention time. I say choosing to care about this is a bad choice, that's not the same thing as saying "you don't have time to care." I'm saying you should not care, period. Not that you should not care because you only have time to care about other things.

You said choosing over.  One or the other.  Has to be time or something else.

Choosing caring over not caring. Seriously. To me it's like whinging about "the innocent Germans" during WWII or the "innocent Japanese", my argument is when fighting such evil there is no time to whinge about how unfair it might be for certain people of the evil side nationality--particularly when, mind you, a government is an expression of what a people tolerate. The Russian people tolerate Putin's rule, and many embrace it. Same as the Japanese and their fascist Imperial government and the Germans and their Nazi government. There is no reason to waste tears on the Russians.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Otto would feel right at home in Putin's Russia, with his us vs. them mentality.

The idea that the West isn't in an us vs them situation with the Russians, or rather that defect in thinking, is what lead us to where we are right now.

[Admiral Yi]

Choosing caring over not caring. Seriously. To me it's like whinging about "the innocent Germans" during WWII or the "innocent Japanese", my argument is when fighting such evil there is no time to whinge about how unfair it might be for certain people of the evil side nationality--particularly when, mind you, a government is an expression of what a people tolerate. The Russian people tolerate Putin's rule, and many embrace it. Same as the Japanese and their fascist Imperial government and the Germans and their Nazi government. There is no reason to waste tears on the Russians.

Again, not what you said originally.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Choosing caring over not caring. Seriously. To me it's like whinging about "the innocent Germans" during WWII or the "innocent Japanese", my argument is when fighting such evil there is no time to whinge about how unfair it might be for certain people of the evil side nationality--particularly when, mind you, a government is an expression of what a people tolerate. The Russian people tolerate Putin's rule, and many embrace it. Same as the Japanese and their fascist Imperial government and the Germans and their Nazi government. There is no reason to waste tears on the Russians.

Again, not what you said originally.

It is functionally what I said, you chose to interpret my statement as saying "you only have time to care about either the Ukrainians or some useless Russian pianist." Whatever the lexical phrasing--that was not my intended meaning, are you going to argue with me about my intended meaning? That's a silly hill to die on. I'm saying you shouldn't give a flying shit about the Russians, because they aren't victims, they are the oppressors. They have options to resist, they choose to do so they get praised, they choose not to--they should not be praised, and they should not be accepted.

[The Brain]

I don't have a problem with venues booking Russian acts. And I don't have a problem with venues NOT booking Russian acts. My uninformed impression is that there may well be significant PR and commercial reasons that make booking Russian acts right now less attractive, and if so I'm sure that will be reflected in a reduced number of bookings. I see nothing here worth worrying about.

[Admiral Yi]

It is functionally what I said, you chose to interpret my statement as saying "you only have time to care about either the Ukrainians or some useless Russian pianist." Whatever the lexical phrasing--that was not my intended meaning, are you going to argue with me about my intended meaning? That's a silly hill to die on. I'm saying you shouldn't give a flying shit about the Russians, because they aren't victims, they are the oppressors. They have options to resist, they choose to do so they get praised, they choose not to--they should not be praised, and they should not be accepted.

I *could* make a big deal out of it, because your use of the word "over" clearly put the two concerns in opposition, but I think I'm pretty much alone on this board in thinking that concession of points that have been rebutted is indivisible with intellectual honesty, so I'm happy to move on to your new point.

I do not see all Russians as the enemy.  I don't see the several thousand who have been arrested for protesting the war as my enemy.  I don't see the 97 year old survivor of Leningrad who protested as my enemy.

You're right that we didn't discriminate between "good" Germans and "bad" Germans or good Japanese and bad Japanese during WWII.  We bombed the hell out of both and starved them both by sinking their shipping.  I would argue the difference now is that we are employing tools that *can* discriminate.  We also have tools that can't, such as de-SWIFTing and freezing central bank assets and banning oil imports, and that's too bad for the good Russians but that's the way it is.  But when it comes to things like musical performances we can discrimiinate.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't have a problem with venues booking Russian acts. And I don't have a problem with venues NOT booking Russian acts. My uninformed impression is that there may well be significant PR and commercial reasons that make booking Russian acts right now less attractive, and if so I'm sure that will be reflected in a reduced number of bookings. I see nothing here worth worrying about.

Right at the outbreak of WWI in America lots of German American names became Anglicized, including of celebrities and performers, simply because people would choose to shop at Smith's Meats over Schmidt's Meats

[Solmyr]

Otto would feel right at home in Putin's Russia, with his us vs. them mentality.

The idea that the West isn't in an us vs them situation with the Russians, or rather that defect in thinking, is what lead us to where we are right now.

As I said, you would love Putin's Russia. They don't have that "defect" in thinking over there.

[crazy canuck]

Otto seems to forget that even at the height of the Cold War, we didn't hate the Russian people.  We understood they were as much a victim of the Soviet regime as anyone.  But Otto hates peoples as a group be they Muslim or, now Russian - although in fairness to him he has stated he has always hated Russians.

Care to name any other groups you hate Otto?

[crazy canuck]

Freedom and liberty includes the freedom of the concert venue to cancel a performance or choose who to schedule or not to schedule.  Is it unfair to the perfomer?  Maybe but that is a risk of a career based on getting members of the general public to pay money to see you perform.    (eg last I checked people weren't flocking to see performances by pro-regime Iranian musicians either).

Certainly, and during the cold war some Russians did pretty well in the West.  Because we did not actually hate all Russians.  In fact we encouraged defectors - I suppose that was a defect....