Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[grumbler]

The Beeb is outdoing themselves in their coverage.  They don't pull their punches as much as other outlets I've seen.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Freedom and liberty includes the freedom of the concert venue to cancel a performance or choose who to schedule or not to schedule.  Is it unfair to the perfomer?  Maybe but that is a risk of a career based on getting members of the general public to pay money to see you perform.    (eg last I checked people weren't flocking to see performances by pro-regime Iranian musicians either).

Certainly, and during the cold war some Russians did pretty well in the West.  Because we did not actually hate all Russians.  In fact we encouraged defectors - I suppose that was a defect....

This is just early war bullshit. We will all feel very bad about this soon and then probably learn nothing from it and do it again.

I'd agree if we were engaging in shitty racist nonsense like we did in WWI, WW2 etc, or even after 9/11. As far as I can tell none of that is happening. What is happening is a few Russian celebrities who have not rejected Putinism have been told they aren't welcome at big public events making a bunch of money in front of Western audiences. Call me when something real happens and we're locking Russian-American kids up in cages or camps.

[viper37]

People are dying in Ukraine. Harsh blanket sanctions against Russia are hitting normal Russians regardless of political opinion. Worrying about reduced income for some Russian artists seems to me to be way down the list of priorities.

It isn't about some artist getting reduced income, it is about the society we live in. These people aren't in Russia and aren't supporting the war effort. Do we collectively punish groups? Should we put them in internment camps?

We ARE collectively punishing Russians. You may disagree with the West's sanctions, but they have strong public support.

Like I said, as long as it's legal then who cares? I think a free society is better than the alternative. If people don't want to be seen to support Russia in this crisis then let them.

I think internment camps for Russian citizens would be illegal in many Western countries.

That's different.  We punish the country, and select individuals/corporations that work closely with the Russian regime to enable their crimes.

The Russians will be affected indiscriminately by the sanctions, that's a given.  Like Iraquis suffering because of the embargo by the US and other nations.  We weren't punishing them, but we crippled Saddam's ability to wage war on neighbouring countries.

However, going after select individuals specifically, when they have no links to the Russian regime is entirely another matter.

I'm all for surveillance of known russian assets, but going after an artist or a tennis player just because he's russian, especially when he's risking his career by speaking against the war, that's totally counter-productive.

[mongers]

The Beeb is outdoing themselves in their coverage.  They don't pull their punches as much as other outlets I've seen.

I think it's just a trend that went too far, excluding death from war footage, recently they've even been blurring out details of combat wounds/injuries. Made worse by the "you may find images in this report upsetting" warnings.

High time that the BBC and other networks showed war for what it is, people die in it and invariably horribly so, the film of dead civilians just cut down deliberately or by a random shell is necessary.
As is those powerful images of the dead Russians, people reduced to misshapen heaps on a road, sacrificed on the battlefield to a ruler's egomania.

[viper37]

- Ukraine has decent low level air defences. Shitty weather means air attacks have to be made from low level, which is risky.

Dunno if any of these have any validity, though. Anyone have insights?

that's what I read so far, good anti-air + bad weather.

And if they start losing planes they can't replace, maybe they become more conservative, as per your first point.

[viper37]

Freedom and liberty includes the freedom of the concert venue to cancel a performance or choose who to schedule or not to schedule.  Is it unfair to the perfomer?  Maybe but that is a risk of a career based on getting members of the general public to pay money to see you perform.    (eg last I checked people weren't flocking to see performances by pro-regime Iranian musicians either).

in this particular case, he wasn't pro-regime at all.

[viper37]

Right at the outbreak of WWI in America lots of German American names became Anglicized, including of celebrities and performers, simply because people would choose to shop at Smith's Meats over Schmidt's Meats

that was their choice, and I dobt it was done within two weeks either.

Now, I don't mind people booing Ovechkin, he got it coming. Plus, he's part of the evil Washington Capitals.  Had he been a Penguin, I'd have been more tolerant
(obvius Valmy bait here )

But I would oppose sanctionning all Russian players in the NHL, even Ovechkin, because most, if not all of them, have nothing to do with the Russian regime.  They're not financially supporting Russia.  They're not influencing policies in Russia.  They're not racking millions & billions because of the Russian regime.

Sure, some are pro-Putin.  Have been since the beginning.  So has Trump and half of Fox News and a solid fraction of the GOP.  Do we cancel them too?

They're morons, obviously.  But they're just as guilty as any Russian athlete or artist who supported Putin.

If the Pussy Riot girls where in America, would you intern them for being Russian?  Would you wish for a boycott of their concerts?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I've seen no evidence he was/is anti-regime, if we're talking the Montreal pianist. He spoke negatively about the war. But even some of the oligarchs have done that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Right at the outbreak of WWI in America lots of German American names became Anglicized, including of celebrities and performers, simply because people would choose to shop at Smith's Meats over Schmidt's Meats

that was their choice, and I dobt it was done within two weeks either.

Now, I don't mind people booing Ovechkin, he got it coming. Plus, he's part of the evil Washington Capitals.  Had he been a Penguin, I'd have been more tolerant
(obvius Valmy bait here )

But I would oppose sanctionning all Russian players in the NHL, even Ovechkin, because most, if not all of them, have nothing to do with the Russian regime.  They're not financially supporting Russia.  They're not influencing policies in Russia.  They're not racking millions & billions because of the Russian regime.

Sure, some are pro-Putin.  Have been since the beginning.  So has Trump and half of Fox News and a solid fraction of the GOP.  Do we cancel them too?

They're morons, obviously.  But they're just as guilty as any Russian athlete or artist who supported Putin.

If the Pussy Riot girls where in America, would you intern them for being Russian?  Would you wish for a boycott of their concerts?

Trump and people like him have absolutely been disinvited from lots of things, yes. They tend not to cry about it because they have their own right wing bubble they live in, but yes--the things you support frequently affect the things you get invited to, please cry more about it.

[Admiral Yi]

I was thinking to myself a fun sanction might to freeze (not confiscate) the US assets of all Russian nationals.  If they're income generating, hold the income in escrow.  Or the international law equivalent.  Unfreeze them in the event of a reasonable peace.

Then I started thinking that might be too close to an act of war.

Any thoughts?

[Admiral Yi]

I've seen no evidence he was/is anti-regime, if we're talking the Montreal pianist. He spoke negatively about the war. But even some of the oligarchs have done that.

If we're going solely off the three tweet quotes you provided, that's very much the messaging of a person who unequivocally opposes the war ("feel guilt forever" or whatever it was) and then tried to walk it back to protect his family, like Squeeze said.  He softens the language but he never retracts it.

But, like I mentioned earlier, adjudicating each and every case of good and bad Russian would be a real bitch.

[Barrister]

Personally, I appreciate seeing combat footage without the constant shouts of "Allah Ackbar!" ruining the soundtrack for a change. It's refreshing.

Who the fuck are you?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I've seen no evidence he was/is anti-regime, if we're talking the Montreal pianist. He spoke negatively about the war. But even some of the oligarchs have done that.

If we're going solely off the three tweet quotes you provided, that's very much the messaging of a person who unequivocally opposes the war ("feel guilt forever" or whatever it was) and then tried to walk it back to protect his family, like Squeeze said.  He softens the language but he never retracts it.

But, like I mentioned earlier, adjudicating each and every case of good and bad Russian would be a real bitch.

I mean there's virtually no serious evidence the Russians go after random musicians families for saying mean things about Putin. Maybe the regime will escalate to that point, but it's nowhere near there now. They haven't even gone after the families of some of Putin's most hated enemies that they've assassinated.

[DGuller]

They haven't done that yet.  The level of repression in Russia has been steadily increasing, and every indication is that patriotic fervor is going to be used to go straight to Brezhnev level repression, if not full Stalin.  There are also other ways to punish people besides jail, such as making people too toxic to employ.

[The Brain]

Do Russians need to pay Russian taxes on income they get from doing gigs in foreign countries?