Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[alfred russel]

People are dying in Ukraine. Harsh blanket sanctions against Russia are hitting normal Russians regardless of political opinion. Worrying about reduced income for some Russian artists seems to me to be way down the list of priorities.

It isn't about some artist getting reduced income, it is about the society we live in. These people aren't in Russia and aren't supporting the war effort. Do we collectively punish groups? Should we put them in internment camps?

We ARE collectively punishing Russians. You may disagree with the West's sanctions, but they have strong public support.

Like I said, as long as it's legal then who cares? I think a free society is better than the alternative. If people don't want to be seen to support Russia in this crisis then let them.

I think internment camps for Russian citizens would be illegal in many Western countries.

We are collectively punishing Russia. The sanctions regime makes sense.

Russians citizens, or those who just have Russian heritage, but reside outside the country shouldn't be discriminated against (obviously excluding those specifically targeted by sanctions). It is profoundly wrong whether it is legal or not. It was legal to put people of japanese heritage in internment camps in WWII, but that didn't make it right or ethical--it definitely was not. In more current events, discrimination against people of chinese descent was wrong during covid even though the government of china was unhelpful in the early days.

[The Brain]

People are dying in Ukraine. Harsh blanket sanctions against Russia are hitting normal Russians regardless of political opinion. Worrying about reduced income for some Russian artists seems to me to be way down the list of priorities.

It isn't about some artist getting reduced income, it is about the society we live in. These people aren't in Russia and aren't supporting the war effort. Do we collectively punish groups? Should we put them in internment camps?

We ARE collectively punishing Russians. You may disagree with the West's sanctions, but they have strong public support.

Like I said, as long as it's legal then who cares? I think a free society is better than the alternative. If people don't want to be seen to support Russia in this crisis then let them.

I think internment camps for Russian citizens would be illegal in many Western countries.

We are collectively punishing Russia. The sanctions regime makes sense.

Russians citizens, or those who just have Russian heritage, but reside outside the country shouldn't be discriminated against (obviously excluding those specifically targeted by sanctions). It is profoundly wrong whether it is legal or not. It was legal to put people of japanese heritage in internment camps in WWII, but that didn't make it right or ethical--it definitely was not. In more current events, discrimination against people of chinese descent was wrong during covid even though the government of china was unhelpful in the early days.

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

[Berkut]

I'm just not sure what the point is anyway.

I don't see how keeping some Russian national from participating in something is helpful to anyone.

If we are going to compromise our commitment to individual liberty and freedom, we should at least have a good reason for doing so that is somehow actually connected to the action in question.

Hell, I would have had no problem putting Japanese Americans in internment camps (well, maybe LESS problem is the better way to put that) if you could actually show some reason for doing so that was connected to the war! If there was actually some reason to believe that Japanese Americans were a threat? But I think we did it not because we thought they were a threat, but because it made us feel good to do it - it was a way for us to feel good about identifying and stepping on a defined "other", and politicians have never passed up a chance to curry favor by attacking some handy group for hate and bigotry.

I think the nation of Russia should be treated as a pariah. I think Russians not in Russia should be treated like human beings.

[alfred russel]

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

Look around?

CC complaining about Ovi playing in the NHL, that concert in Montreal canceled, Netflix canceling its film adoptation of Anna Karenina?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Everything I've read, and every war game I've played, has told me troops and vehicles in road march column are sitting ducks.

On the other hand, the recon marines in their humvees in Generation Kill basically drove through Iraq in road march column so what do I know.

If you look at any of the (publicly available) U.S. Army manuals there are a number of entries on how to move in column formation. It's all about context, tactics, specific environment, etc etc etc. It's a tad simple to say never move in a column because on action movies that is how the ambushes happen.

[Berkut]

Yeah, moving in column on a road is radically faster then moving any other way.

Sometimes moving fast is the safest thing to do.

[The Brain]

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

Look around?

CC complaining about Ovi playing in the NHL, that concert in Montreal canceled, Netflix canceling its film adoptation of Anna Karenina?

You must have mistaken me for some other poster.

[crazy canuck]

I'm just not sure what the point is anyway.

I don't see how keeping some Russian national from participating in something is helpful to anyone.

If we are going to compromise our commitment to individual liberty and freedom, we should at least have a good reason for doing so that is somehow actually connected to the action in question.

Hell, I would have had no problem putting Japanese Americans in internment camps (well, maybe LESS problem is the better way to put that) if you could actually show some reason for doing so that was connected to the war! If there was actually some reason to believe that Japanese Americans were a threat? But I think we did it not because we thought they were a threat, but because it made us feel good to do it - it was a way for us to feel good about identifying and stepping on a defined "other", and politicians have never passed up a chance to curry favor by attacking some handy group for hate and bigotry.

I think the nation of Russia should be treated as a pariah. I think Russians not in Russia should be treated like human beings.

The reason is the same reason the West is putting sanctions on individual Russians - general sanctions won't work. The West needs to hit those close to Putin to make him and his group of elites feel the pain.

And for those of you, AR especially, who don't know.  Ovi is close to Putin.

[alfred russel]

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

Look around?

CC complaining about Ovi playing in the NHL, that concert in Montreal canceled, Netflix canceling its film adoptation of Anna Karenina?

You must have mistaken me for some other poster.

You posted a story of russians being banned from a ski race in Sweden...your reservations was the unclear legality rather than the ethics of bans based on nationality.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Anti-tank is definitely at a point where armor isn't nearly as powerful, in my mind, relative to other elements, as it was in the 40s/50s etc. Both shoulder-mounted, towed, and aerial anti-tank options are all quite powerful. The U.S. tries to get around a lot of this by making our Main Battle Tank use active armor and a bunch of other shit that supposedly makes it nigh invulnerable to a lot of common anti-tank weapons, but the reality is you can still lose them.

A tank can definitely still be quite decisive if you need to push into entrenched enemy territory, a couple tanks rolling in on top of dug in enemies suddenly fucks up their situation really bad and opens the entire enemy front to being splintered and broken apart by supporting forces.

There's things happening right now in Ukraine that defy a lot of conventional thinking of how wars would play out like this. The biggest thing by far is U.S. doctrine in all of its modern wars has been to erase the enemy from both the skies and from organized anti-air very, very quickly. Aerial supremacy really changes everything. Like I don't have to worry nearly as much about my column of men and material rolling down a road being ambushed when I have continuous close air support, including attack helicopters running infrared cameras--you aren't ambushing that, and those helos can kill ground forces with terrifying efficiency at great range. Support fixed wing aircraft open all kinds of other opportunities, with their ability to attack enemy soldiers, drop down re-supplies, break apart enemy fortified positions etc. They also remove the ability of the enemy to move, in a situation of aerial supremacy if the enemy is dumb enough to move in the open, they die, almost without fail. Our enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan essentially knew that, and you have to work around it in various ways (i.e. by melding in with the civilian population, moving in very small numbers in far out of the way areas etc), but all of those ways definitely lower your ability to fight. Of course the lesson from Afghanistan is even that isn't decisive for an insurgency operation, but it limits the ability of insurgents to perform traditional assaults and offensives.

There's tons of speculation about why Russia hasn't established aerial supremacy, but it would have been unthinkable to most American military experts to imagine a country of Russia's presumed sophistication and power would not have made that a very top goal for the first 48 hours of the war.

[OttoVonBismarck]

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

Look around?

CC complaining about Ovi playing in the NHL, that concert in Montreal canceled, Netflix canceling its film adoptation of Anna Karenina?

You must have mistaken me for some other poster.

You posted a story of russians being banned from a ski race in Sweden...your reservations was the unclear legality rather than the ethics of bans based on nationality.

I think your boo-hooing about Russian violinists or whatever is pretty boring and stupid. No one gives a fuck if some Russian is treated meanly in the West.

[Admiral Yi]

I give a fuck.  I think canceling the pianist was stupid.

Though if you want to institutionalize it you would be in the impossible position of vetting their anti-Putin credentials.

[The Brain]

When did people of simply Russian descent enter the discussion? Goalposts on wheels.

Look around?

CC complaining about Ovi playing in the NHL, that concert in Montreal canceled, Netflix canceling its film adoptation of Anna Karenina?

You must have mistaken me for some other poster.

You posted a story of russians being banned from a ski race in Sweden...your reservations was the unclear legality rather than the ethics of bans based on nationality.

And therefore people simply of Russian descent became a thing in the discussion? The ski race banned actual Russian citizens, not people of Russian descent.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I give a fuck.  I think canceling the pianist was stupid.

Though if you want to institutionalize it you would be in the impossible position of vetting their anti-Putin credentials.

It's not your turn to give a fuck, seriously, not about this. Ukrainians are having maternity hospitals bombed and dying by the thousands. Are Russians being treated legally in the West? If the answer to that is yes, I don't really care if on an individual level people choose to distance themselves from Russian celebrities. Choosing to care about that over the thousands of dead Ukrainians reveals a pretty obvious bias to be quite honest.

[mongers]

I give a fuck.  I think canceling the pianist was stupid.

Though if you want to institutionalize it you would be in the impossible position of vetting their anti-Putin credentials.

It's not your turn to give a fuck, seriously, not about this. Ukrainians are having maternity hospitals bombed and dying by the thousands. Are Russians being treated legally in the West? If the answer to that is yes, I don't really care if on an individual level people choose to distance themselves from Russian celebrities. Choosing to care about that over the thousands of dead Ukrainians reveals a pretty obvious bias to be quite honest.

I guess the sanctions on Russian agricultural goods have yet to affect the vast surplus of corn crop residue in the USA.