How could I resist posting this here! :lol:
Quote
'Seeking Asian Female' Takes A Close Look At A Fetish
by
May 11, 2013 9:00 AM
It's hard to watch Seeking Asian Female, Debbie Lum's uncomfortably close look at the phenomenon some call "yellow fever" — when usually non-Asian men fetishize Asian women as romantic or sexual partners — without squirming. And at first, it seems like it wasn't so easy for Lum to document the phenomenon.
"I had to fight the urge to turn around and leave," Lum says in a voiceover, right before she meets the character we know only as "Steven" for the first time. She told me this guy had one of the "worst cases of yellow fever" she has seen.
Steven, an earnest, bespectacled, white American man with an unsettling penchant for Asian females, is not exactly the most appealing of potential suitors. He has a tendency to evaluate women based on their level of "Chineseness." As he beckons Lum inside his messy apartment, he tells her with unabashed glee: "You look very Chinese, with the bangs. You know I like that." Later, Steven excitedly describes his love interest Sandy as "looking so Chinese. You can't look any more Chinese than that." What makes him an expert on looking Chinese is pretty unclear, though he doesn't seem too concerned about that.
He seems to lust after Asian women for their supposed beauty and docility. "I mean I'm an old guy, I'm 60," he tells Lum before meeting Sandy, musing about his ideal woman. "Do I want the farm girl to take care of me? Do I want... an intelligent business woman to help me grow back and forth? What do I want? ....There's this Vietnamese movie called The Scent of Green Papaya that has this servant girl who cooks these beautiful meals. Gee, would it be like that?"
Not quite.
Meet Sandy, a 30-year-old woman from the Anhui province in China. Sandy finds Steven on an online dating site and seems to be seeking a potential entryway to the U.S. and some economic stability. (She takes two separate photos of them and makes a sort of endearing, sort of creepy couples picture, much to his delight.) Steven visits her a few times in China, they hit it off and she comes to the states on a K-1 engagement visa.
Sure, Sandy takes care of him. But she's hardly the demure lady he hoped for, just as he's hardly the flashy American she might have expected. Throughout the film, a frustrated Sandy describes wanting to get out of the relationship as soon as she has enough money and schooling.
The film has a whole bunch of flashing warning signs that say this relationship Might Not Be A Good Idea. I cringed a lot. When a frustrated Sandy confesses that she'd "lose face" if she told her family and friends in China about her house-less, money-less American beau, I found myself asking, Why are you doing this?
And yet.
And yet. Over the course of the film, something remarkable happened for me. Sandy and Steven, together, started to seem like it may not be such a bad thing after all.
There was something unsettling about the film, and my reaction to it. Why was I feeling sympathetic to Steven, who fetishizes Asian women? Can a relationship, borne out of something perhaps a little twisted on both sides, evolve into something genuine? Is it even fair to judge someone else's relationship? Lum, who like me is Chinese-American, told me that she began making the documentary because she was sick of dealing with men (usually non-Asian) who shared Steven's creepy fascination with Asian women. But as she made the film, Lum's thoughts changed, sort of like mine.
After Lum settled on Steven as a subject for her documentary, she thought the film would be about his relationship with Sandy. She had no idea that she'd become intimately wrapped up in their courtship: she soon found herself their designated (and reluctant) translator, and from there, the couple's de facto marriage counselor.
When Sandy finds a cache of photos of Steven's ex-girlfriend on his computer — the ex was Chinese, natch — she freaks out. Lum translates their fight. "I can only prove my love day by day," Steven says. (Lum refuses to translate that for him.)
"This is going to be an adjustment on both of our parts," a teary-eyed Steven tells the camera after his fight with Sandy. "This is not China, and I am not Chinese. I'm hoping for the best."
As Lum gets closer to the couple, she starts to see beneath the surface of their relationship — that there might be genuine feelings.
"There's this whole other individual there," Lum said of Steven. "When I see couples like Steven and Sandy, I think about their stories now, as much as I think about what it reads as, or what it looks like from the outside."
Lum, by the way, is married to a white Irishman. But she says her relationship with her husband is different than Steven and Sandy's. "Steven and Sandy's is a kind of modern take on an old-fashioned arranged marriage," Lum said. "They went into it with a really pre-determined desire to be married above everything else, whereas my husband and I kind of just met."
Yet she sometimes wonders if others think of their relationship as one tinged by yellow fever.
Sandy and Steven, by the way, are still together. Sandy now speaks English fluently, Lum said.
I came to this film thinking of Steven as "an Asian fetishist" and of Sandy as "an opportunist." Having spent a little while getting to know them through Lum's lens, I saw their nuances. Parts of their relationship — their fights, their daily interactions, their worries — became incredibly human, completely relatable to an outsider.
Except I feel like there should be a "but."
This narrative still doesn't sit well with me. The way Steven thought about Asian women — stripping them of ther individuality, layering on pre-conceived ideals, replacing people with types — was challenged when he met Sandy, a real person with layers of her own. They might make the relationship work, yes, and I might even want them to. But in that case, their road to happiness feels marred with potholes that still need to be examined and considered.
QuoteUPDATE:
A man we believe to be Steven Bolstad, Seeking Asian Female's documentary subject, responded to the post in the comments section. (We also reached out to filmmaker Debbie Lum to comment and are waiting on her response.) Here's what Steven had to say:
"So many of you like to pontificate upon my life. Making strong judgments about my motivations and my character. You must be perfect people! please let me bow down to you.
I have written several paragraphs in this conversation thread to clarify the perceptions of what people think I said or feel. But people just keep talking past me with the same stupid thoughts and not acknowledging what I have written.
So I reiterate my statements:
After meeting online and emailing and web camming daily for long hours into the night, I finally met Sandy in person nine months later on Valentine's Day, 2008. That first visit was two weeks long of 24/7 time spent together. We got to know each other very well with the help of our electronics and hand gestures.
We were quite sure we were the right thing for each other, so I made another short trip later just to meet her parents and tell them we were serious.
Another ten day visit in the fall to get to know each other even better.
Then the following year the three-week visit to go to the US consulate to prove we were really a couple in order to get the marriage visa.
By the end of May 2009 we came to the USA, and on August 22 we got married.
So as a couple we've been together six years, and as a married couple it will be four years in August.
Some people have laughed at my methods, but I find that certain things were key for me. My searching was thorough and my vetting process took time. I did a lot of communication back and forth with many people and some seemed very nice while others were not in the running. With emails you can find out quite rapidly the character and level of education of the writer and her intent. But I was pragmatic and practical in my approach I thought.
When I finally connected with Sandy we communicated every night through emails and web cam, and photo exchanges. We knew about each other's families long before we even met.
You may laugh when I say communication because the movie shows us having a difficult time. But it only became difficult when there were some serious differences or arguments. And while it appears in the film that we were always that way, truthfully that was not the case.
We get along wonderfully well, we have great chemistry.
There are so many problems with that phrase "yellow fever"
Lightheartedly I could accept it, but in reality it sounds far more strange than how I view it. Like an affliction rather than a preference.
I had never thought about it before until 10 years after the disastrous end of my second marriage. I avoided any romance for that period.
Then I saw my son find a beautiful Japanese girlfriend whom he later married. They seemed so happy and looked so nice together. She was very polite and amiable but definitely not a subservient type. She was a powerful go-getter for sure, with strong opinions, and high standards and a sense of purpose.
I thought maybe this might be a new and better direction for my life as well. So I diligently searched for ones I might have chemistry with.
Each nationality seems to have a personality of its own. Early on in my search and communications I discovered that the Chinese style of communication was what I enjoyed most.
It actually took me about a year to finally realize how I feel about it this documentary.
In the five years of filming I never once saw a "rush" of the film nor saw the direction that Debbie was taking or how the story was shaped. .
I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. So it was with some surprise that I found the emphasis on creepiness.
The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere.
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong.
Almost all that have had their own pre conceived opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.
Sandy wound up not liking it much at all because it revealed too many personal things about herself. She's actually quite shy and very private.
I had told her it was going to be a movie on TV but that really doesn't sink in when one woman shows up with one camera to talk. So she felt very exposed. Overexposed.
Often in the movie she would be venting off steam about a problem or situation the way people do and say things off the top of their heads. It comes across as her desires ver batem or her secret plan. She felt disturbed about that.
———-
It was originally presented to me as a documentary essay on the phenomenon of the Caucasian male
/Asian female couplings that are so predominant on the West Coast.
After several months of filming it began to focus on my quest and finally my marriage.
But the final product appeared to be a vendetta on Debbie Lum's "ickyisms". Whatever gave Debbie the "cooties".
Five years of my life expressing total open honesty to an ever peering lens for the sake of art for a project that seemed worthy then to finally being reduced to a "creepy white guy" with no verbal filter. And in an interview later she stated I had a "creepy marriage".
Never in five years had I ever seen a "rush" of the movie. Never seeing how my story was being shaped or presented or exposed.
There were many many filming sessions.
There is much on the cutting room floor that I might have been far more proud of than the scenes that were selected. She shot a lot. She shot everything. She chose what she wanted to express her way of thinking.
But even in the honest scenes that were shown, the intention of statements I made seem twisted or manipulated to please the directors predilection.
My Chinese haircut comment in the beginning, for instance, was a surprise set up by the director who showed up for that days meeting with an extreme China doll haircut that she has never worn before or since.
It is not shown in the movie (even substituted with another later shot of herself with her normal haircut) but it was a provocative move to initiate my so-called creepy reaction.
I had reacted humorously to it, I thought, when she showed up with it that day, but was framed as looking ghoulishly creepy.
Being filmed was kind of an interesting part of my life, without really knowing what was going to come of it. I wanted to document what was happening myself with a few photographs. I am an avid photo shooter and take pictures of everything. But in the film it appears as if I was gawking at her all the time.
And in the end it was Debbie who asked me if I had any more pictures of her that I had taken. That she wanted to use them for the promotion.
Then later in interviews complaining that I made her feel uncomfortable because I took a total of a dozen pictures of her all while she was filming me for five years.
Someone might say that's ironic. Someone else might say that's hypocritical.
As far as her translations saving my marriage, in review I see many instances where she planted seeds of doubt that in the end might not have been very helpful at all
The cake ordering scene was another one where I asked an innocent question to the baker iabout the color of butter cream. Debbie, the skillful editor, has made it look as though I was making a racial comment.
The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere.
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong.
Almost all that have had opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.
Settling on their opinions from anything Debbie might have told them in the film or about me in the interview.
And Debbie serves her self.
Another thing that shapes my character poorly as a creepy guy is the absence of a back story of my life, other than a few comments about being a twice divorced parking lot cashier.
Perhaps that is all one needed to have an opinion of me. But I was not always employed thusly. I had had a successful sales company for years.
I also owned a jewelry company with 20 plus employees and 40 sales people across the country.
That my disastrous second short-lived marriage left me devastated and emotionally drained for 10 years could have been a preliminary to my search for something new. A new way to approach a marriage.
In the end the obvious beauty of an Asian woman is only part of the attraction. The fallacy of the subservient woman had long ago left my thinking, but seemed perpetuated by comments in the film and in the reviews afterwards.
I was looking for a strong woman not a dishrag. I wanted a partner.
I had methodically searched for a long time in order to find the right chemistry with the right person.
My choice was pragmatic and practical.
I went to a source where they were also looking for me.
Yet some people complain that I should probably be bumping my head against the wall in my own country with my own race.
Ahhh! The Love Police! Isn't that great?
What two open minded individuals decide to arrange between themselves is not good enough for them.
No! It's wrong they say. I'm too old, she's too young I'm too white, she's too yellow.
ABCs are in particular severely judgmental. Often trying hard to intellectualize or pontificate on the base motives of other peoples emotions. So often with an air of superiority.
My personality tends to engage with people in an open almost flirty way.
I like to start discussions in a fun manner. Even at work I have an open amiable approach to almost every customer. A slightly teasing, open but friendly way to engage each person for the sixty seconds we have to interact. It makes my drudgery seem bearable and most customers seem to appreciate that a human is talking with them instead of someone reading the newspaper and looking the other way, or worse a machine.
The director seems to take my style as a personal affront. Or so she seems to state. If joking with someone who you have become to think is a friend is considered being hit upon, please don't take it personally. Not that interested, thanks.
Many misconceptions fade away with this film. Many seem to remain. Many arise anew.
While it does capture some truths, it does not show the entire truth.
In the end it is only Debbie Lum's view of our life and her version of our life.
I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could.
My paycheck? Insults.
As Dan Hicks said,
"Where's the Money?"
This is me. I am the guy. The Steven guy.
You know I find it odd that this movie is about me and my search for my wife and is so loaded with misconceptions that really never get cleared up.
"Yellow fever" Is not a term I use but have accepted lightheartedly.
But everyone commenting here has their own idea of my motivation and what they feel I should be doing or not be doing in my own life.
I mean, I volunteered for the movie to show that a regular guy can find a regular woman on the other side of the earth with the aid of the Internet.
That two people who can connect to each other and find they have chemistry is possible.
I did a thorough vetting search. I did not pick numbers of the shelf.
I talked to people who wanted to talk to me.
There are thousands who were looking for someone to respect them
And vice versa.
So I join this conversation here earlier with several paragraphs of my complaints about these perceptions.
Still no one addresses that for me or has a question for me.
Most all just talk past me with their own heavily opinionated and arrogantly expressed positions.
They have their own ideas of me and for me and for my life. Talk about misconceptions - wow!
I have heard from a few people who understood my comments about the Vietnamese film was sarcastic.
I really was NOT looking for a submissive wife.
Nobody else caught it. Even professional reviewers.
While many comment about me being a washed up white creep only proves my point that there is not much hope for me to search in my own country.
And how would one do that? Go to bars? Find somebody at work? Bump into someone on the street?
Give me a break.
If Norway had millions of women wanting to find a husband I might have considered that. Who would object to going with my own heritage.
Alas, this is not the case anyway.
The sheer largest volume of possible sources of educated, attractive, honest, earnest, available choices for mating rests in China.
They just happen to have a preponderance of beauty and charm as well.
The numbers were on my side.
The odds were in my favor.
It only makes sense to proceed in this pragmatic manner.
As I said earlier, once we connected online we spent nine months communicating every night for long hours with emails, texts, WebCam, photo exchanges long before We met in person. Then several lengthy meetings together in China to get to know each other very well.
A rather legitimate courtship I think.
So I really resent references to "mail order bride" and "arranged marriages"
We are two people with deliberate intentions meeting online for a common purpose.
As to the power differential some referred to, If my wife had been just the farm girl she began as I might accept that criticism. But she had gone to the city and worked her way up from factory worker to executive secretary with computer knowledge and a wonderful sense of style. And she has the most wonderful sense of humor.
She had a good job, she had a cool apartment of her own, and she had bought her parents a house and many appliances.
This is exactly the strong mate I was looking for. That she was young and beautiful was my good fortune.
We get along quite swimmingly. We have great chemistry.
What's your problem?"
They have kitty cat eyes. Mew. Squee.
Appreciating a phenotype is no crime. Then again, I'm in the category where "thin, small, brunette Caucasian" is basically equally desirable, and also would be highly skeptical of marrying a foreigner, probably escaping a dusty village in rural PRChina, who is unlikely to share many of my interests, and is probably no more human than a rural South Carolinian from 1935.
I've been jonesing for a busty Midwestern-esque blue-eyed blonde lately. Preferably 5'5". 36c. That would be nice.
QuoteIt's hard to watch Seeking Asian Female, Debbie Lum's uncomfortably close look at the phenomenon some call "yellow fever" — when usually non-Asian men fetishize Asian women as romantic or sexual partners — without squirming. And at first, it seems like it wasn't so easy for Lum to document the phenomenon.
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
QuoteThis narrative still doesn't sit well with me. The way Steven thought about Asian women — stripping them of ther individuality, layering on pre-conceived ideals, replacing people with types — was challenged when he met Sandy, a real person with layers of her own.
So...like every other relationship in the history of the universe? He had fantasies about his perfect mate but discovered a real person when he started dating? Um...yeah so?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 02:07:17 AM
I've been jonesing for a busty Midwestern-esque blue-eyed blonde lately. Preferably 5'5". 36c. That would be nice.
I have a client in South Dakota that fits that bill. Very cute gal.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
Yeah, I don't get it either; it all falls under secondary sex traits. Short hair, redhead, asian, bust size, etc.
And I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
Quote from: derspiess on May 15, 2013, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 02:07:17 AM
I've been jonesing for a busty Midwestern-esque blue-eyed blonde lately. Preferably 5'5". 36c. That would be nice.
I have a client in South Dakota that fits that bill. Very cute gal.
nom nom nom
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
Yeah, I don't get it either; it all falls under secondary sex traits. Short hair, redhead, asian, bust size, etc.
I think - and since I don't share this view it's only a guess - that the concern is that "preferring" a zenotype gives the impression that the person believes them all to be the same. With Asian women in particular, men seemingly wanting the stereotype of the submissive, demure lady seems to offend. (Think Lettow when he first started talking about his "ideal" Asian woman.) Essentially, those who judge are assuming that the men with this preference are all a single type, rather than individuals, which is kind of ironic when you think about it.
QuoteAnd I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
I think I've heard you guys talk about this before, but I'd love to know where it comes from. I honestly don't know anyone who has ever said anything other than they would prefer to date a man taller than them. (At 5'2", that kind of leaves the door wide open for me, which makes me happy. :D )
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
And I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
I think I've heard you guys talk about this before, but I'd love to know where it comes from.
match.com
eharmony.com
okcupid.com
matchmaker.com
flirt.com
professionalsinglesover40.com
blackpeoplemeet.com
amigos.com
jdate.com
muslimfriends.com
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:34:10 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
And I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
I think I've heard you guys talk about this before, but I'd love to know where it comes from.
match.com
eharmony.com
okcupid.com
matchmaker.com
flirt.com
professionalsinglesover40.com
blackpeoplemeet.com
amigos.com
jdate.com
muslimfriends.com
Ah, okay. I don't go to those sites. :P
It's phenotype, not zenotype.
Xenomorph.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
QuoteIt's hard to watch Seeking Asian Female, Debbie Lum's uncomfortably close look at the phenomenon some call "yellow fever" — when usually non-Asian men fetishize Asian women as romantic or sexual partners — without squirming. And at first, it seems like it wasn't so easy for Lum to document the phenomenon.
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
QuoteThis narrative still doesn't sit well with me. The way Steven thought about Asian women — stripping them of ther individuality, layering on pre-conceived ideals, replacing people with types — was challenged when he met Sandy, a real person with layers of her own.
So...like every other relationship in the history of the universe? He had fantasies about his perfect mate but discovered a real person when he started dating? Um...yeah so?
There is a spectrum - from having a preference on the one hand (which everyone does, if not with 'racial characteristics', then with something equally appearance-based) and fetishizing on the other. The difference between the two is that the fetishist assigns all sorts of significance to their appearance-based preference that exists only in their minds, and the fetish gets in the way of appreciating (or in some cases even seeing) the non-appearance-based characteristics of the other person - who is, in the fetishists' mind at the extreme end of the spectrum, less of a subject in her or his own right, than an object to be desired or not based on whether they live up to the fantasy image the fetishist has constructed about them.
In short, someone having a preference is attracted to someone initially because of their preference, and then falls in love with that person (or not). The true fetishist is attracted to the fetish and will not, or cannot, see the person embodying that fetish as a person.
The stronger the stated preference, the more the suspicion that the person stating the preference falls towards the "fetishist" end of the spectrum. Which is of course all very well if all the parties are interested in are sex games, but bad news if they want some sort of relationship.
I've seen this documentary.
The guy is indeed a creep, but the film maker is just some Chinese-American girl with a bit of a victim complex.
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 08:45:32 AMThe difference between the two is that the fetishist assigns all sorts of significance to their appearance-based preference that exists only in their minds, and the fetish gets in the way of appreciating (or in some cases even seeing) the non-appearance-based characteristics of the other person - who is, in the fetishists' mind at the extreme end of the spectrum, less of a subject in her or his own right, than an object to be desired or not based on whether they live up to the fantasy image the fetishist has constructed about them.
Well then they picked a bad subject for this film since he also thinks Asian women have lots of desireably non-appearance characteristics he likes. I do not know if your definition and the one used by the documentary maker are the same. And um most people construct a fantasy mate and start out seeing their quest for a mate as desiring an 'object'. If it was about treasuring everybody for being a nice little snowflake people would base their preferences on who most needs their love and affection versus who fulfills their needs the most. So I am not sure how this sort of 'objectifying' is different than anybody else.
QuoteIn short, someone having a preference is attracted to someone initially because of their preference, and then falls in love with that person (or not). The true fetishist is attracted to the fetish and will not, or cannot, see the person embodying that fetish as a person.
Well I have never heard the term 'yellow fever' applied this way before. Generally it was just guys who preferred to date Asian girls. This sounds like a tiny minority of sociopaths who are incapable of functioning in society anyway.
What about Jungle Fever? Eskimo Fever? I've Got the Fever For The Flavor of a Persian?
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 09:37:44 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 08:45:32 AM
In short, someone having a preference is attracted to someone initially because of their preference, and then falls in love with that person (or not). The true fetishist is attracted to the fetish and will not, or cannot, see the person embodying that fetish as a person.
Well I have never heard the term 'yellow fever' applied this way before. Generally it was just guys who preferred to date Asian girls. This sounds like a tiny minority of sociopaths.
Well ... it's associated with the whole "Asians are demure and submissive" stereotype. And with the importation of Asian mail-order brides. Obviously, again, it is a spectrum, so what I'm describing is one of the extreme end-points, which very few will wholeheartedly resemble.
One suspects that some of these fellows are gonna be dissapointed on the whole "demure and submissive" thing. :D
But you have asked what is creepy about it - and it is this: the concern that someone expressing "yellow fever" is some sort of Lettowish fetishist, rather than simply expressing a preference like "I like redheads".
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 09:46:37 AM
One suspects that some of these fellows are gonna be dissapointed on the whole "demure and submissive" thing. :D
Ain't that the fucking truth.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 09:37:44 AM
Well then they picked a bad subject for this film since he also thinks Asian women have lots of desireably non-appearance characteristics he likes. I do not know if your definition and the one used by the documentary maker are the same. And um most people construct a fantasy mate and start out seeing their quest for a mate as desiring an 'object'. If it was about treasuring everybody for being a nice little snowflake people would base their preferences on who most needs their love and affection versus who fulfills their needs the most. So I am not sure how this sort of 'objectifying' is different than anybody else.
You added this part ... but yeah from the written discription the whole point of the documentary appears to be that the film-maker thought the guy was a hardcore fetishist but he turned out not to be, as their relationship became just another relationship.
Yes, of course everyone starts out with an image of what they want which is very superficial. The difference (and what makes a fetishist creepy) is that your truly hardcore fetishist doesn't move beyond that.
The issue is that, rightly or wrongly, fairly or not, those expressing "yellow fever" are more likely to be seen as anti-social type fetishists than (say) those expressing an interest in "natural redheads". You can blame Lettow, the anime-loving brigade, and creeps who live in trailers and order mail-order brides for that perception.
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 09:46:37 AM
Well ... it's associated with the whole "Asians are demure and submissive" stereotype. And with the importation of Asian mail-order brides. Obviously, again, it is a spectrum, so what I'm describing is one of the extreme end-points, which very few will wholeheartedly resemble.
Well if you have a preference for a traditional gender roles relationship going to a more conservative culture makes good sense. My preference was for the other thing, I wanted a woman who could get shit done, and I selected for that. What makes them worse than me? We both were clear on what we wanted.
QuoteOne suspects that some of these fellows are gonna be dissapointed on the whole "demure and submissive" thing.
Yeah those guys think that about Russians (and various other former Soviet-flavors) women as well, which sounded like a bad risk to me knowing a bit about Russia.
QuoteBut you have asked what is creepy about it - and it is this: the concern that someone expressing "yellow fever" is some sort of Lettowish fetishist, rather than simply expressing a preference like "I like redheads".
I am sure there are plenty of creepy guys with a preference for redheads. But the way I hear the 'fetishize Asian women' thing is that this is a common thing that is a symptom of vile western racism rather than just a few sociopathic creeps being creepy.
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 09:53:49 AM
You can blame Lettow, the anime-loving brigade, and creeps who live in trailers and order mail-order brides for that perception.
Well fair enough. There is alot I can blame those guys on :lol:
All things being equal, I have a preference for white girls. But for some reason when you're also white no one calls that a fetish. :hmm:
Ide has Auschwitz Fever.
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2013, 10:09:45 AM
All things being equal, I have a preference for white girls. But for some reason when you're also white no one calls that a fetish. :hmm:
No. Now you are just objectifying.
You monster. :mad:
No, no, no...keep the striped pajamas on, baby.
:lol:
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2013, 10:09:45 AM
All things being equal, I have a preference for white girls. But for some reason when you're also white no one calls that a fetish. :hmm:
Naw, you just get thought a milquetoast.
Of course, one look at you, and no-one would dream of thinking that. ;)
:lol:
QuoteIt's hard to watch Seeking Asian Female, Debbie Lum's uncomfortably close look at the phenomenon some call "yellow fever" — when usually non-Asian men fetishize Asian women as romantic or sexual partners — without squirming. And at first, it seems like it wasn't so easy for Lum to document the phenomenon.
It seems to me she didn't really document the phenomenon, or being generous just touched on the most lunatic fringe of it. I think most of us have known someone that likes dating asian girls, but that really isn't the same thing as some loser ordering a mail order bride half his age.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 15, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
It seems to me she didn't really document the phenomenon, or being generous just touched on the most lunatic fringe of it. I think most of us have known someone that likes dating asian girls, but that really isn't the same thing as some loser ordering a mail order bride half his age.
I think the guy's response is that the director edited the film to give that appearance, and that he's not a loser ordering a mail order bride half his age, but rather a guy who met a woman online, fell in love, and married her. That his preference was for Asian women was a side note, from his perspective, and age wasn't really a factor.
Given how editing can seriously change the feel and impression of a subject, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. *shrugs*
Heh, reminds me of that article on general preferences by racial characteristics in NA - as I recall Asian women did well, Asian men did poorly.
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 10:37:44 AM
Heh, reminds me of that article on general preferences by racial characteristics in NA - as I recall Asian women did well, Asian men did poorly.
It's very strange. I think that Asian men are attractive, but I've never had any desire to date one. No idea why.
I'm continually weirded out by the American obsession with race and the multi-splendored ways in which it manifests itself.
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 10:34:24 AM
I think the guy's response is that the director edited the film to give that appearance, and that he's not a loser ordering a mail order bride half his age, but rather a guy who met a woman online, fell in love, and married her. That his preference was for Asian women was a side note, from his perspective, and age wasn't really a factor.
Given how editing can seriously change the feel and impression of a subject, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. *shrugs*
I would probably say that too if I ordered a mail order bride half my age and this was documented in a film. :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
Yeah, I don't get it either; it all falls under secondary sex traits. Short hair, redhead, asian, bust size, etc.
And I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 10:20:21 AM
Of course, one look at you, and no-one would dream of thinking that. ;)
:unsure:
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 11:28:30 AM
I'm continually weirded out by the American obsession with race and the multi-splendored ways in which it manifests itself.
Max says the same thing. It actually repulses him a lot of the time. I had no idea how bad it was until he moved down here. I'm learning how bad we are, but it's a process to disengage from the public discussion. I always thought that I was pretty liberal in my thinking, but the more time I spend with Max, the more I realize that I'm no better than those I consider overly-concerned with race. All I can do is try to get better.
I think race is fine as long as you act white.
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 11:28:30 AM
I'm continually weirded out by the American obsession with race and the multi-splendored ways in which it manifests itself.
I took a theatre class at UT last semester and it was overwhelmingly about race. I was pretty weirded out.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 11:57:38 AMI took a theatre class at UT last semester and it was overwhelmingly about race. I was pretty weirded out.
How so?
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
Hey, who knows how bad things would be for you if you were short? ;)
Anyway, Dan Savage had a pretty good "take" on racial preferences - if someone prefers you because of your racial characteristics, that may in some technical sense be racist, but who cares? If the 'harm' is that 'it is easier to get dates', well, that's not much of a harm. Sure beats 'it is easier to be lynched'. :D
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 11:57:38 AMI took a theatre class at UT last semester and it was overwhelmingly about race. I was pretty weirded out.
How so?
African-American theatre, Asian-American theatre, Latino-American theatre and so forth. A whole section on Black Face minstrel shows. Color-blind casting and controversies in race in the theatre. Which race and gender and sexuality holds the power in theatre and how stories are told? Just a hint: those people sorta resemble me :P
My favorite was the GLBT stuff, which of course also had a large section about race. 'Gay' theatre is mainstream and makes big bucks. 'Lesbian' theatre is obscure crap that rejects all the patriarchal standards that plays require things like plots and a play text.
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 11:28:30 AM
I'm continually weirded out by the American obsession with race and the multi-splendored ways in which it manifests itself.
Max says the same thing. It actually repulses him a lot of the time. I had no idea how bad it was until he moved down here. I'm learning how bad we are, but it's a process to disengage from the public discussion. I always thought that I was pretty liberal in my thinking, but the more time I spend with Max, the more I realize that I'm no better than those I consider overly-concerned with race. All I can do is try to get better.
It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't scenarios. But I actually get a chuckle over most foreigners who come here without the "concern for race" chip we have implanted in our heads.
Quote from: derspiess on May 15, 2013, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 11:28:30 AM
I'm continually weirded out by the American obsession with race and the multi-splendored ways in which it manifests itself.
Max says the same thing. It actually repulses him a lot of the time. I had no idea how bad it was until he moved down here. I'm learning how bad we are, but it's a process to disengage from the public discussion. I always thought that I was pretty liberal in my thinking, but the more time I spend with Max, the more I realize that I'm no better than those I consider overly-concerned with race. All I can do is try to get better.
It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't scenarios. But I actually get a chuckle over most foreigners who come here without the "concern for race" chip we have implanted in our heads.
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Well I have been informed that not taking race very seriously is just a way to protect white privilege from the fierce scrutiny it deserves.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
Well I have been informed that not taking race very seriously is just a way to protect white privilege from the fierce scrutiny it deserves.
I didn't say that our unhealthy preoccupation with race was restricted to only white people. ;)
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
Well I have been informed that not taking race very seriously is just a way to protect white privilege from the fierce scrutiny it deserves.
I didn't say that our unhealthy preoccupation with race was restricted to only white people. ;)
I did not mean to imply you did not. I was just repeating what I was told in my theatre class :P
I sure learned alot about race. A little about theatre as well though I think that might have been unintentional.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Well I have been informed that not taking race very seriously is just a way to protect white privilege from the fierce scrutiny it deserves.
Strange considering that the only way to eradicate racism is to ignore race as a factor entirely like our foreign friends do.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 01:01:06 PM
Strange considering that the only way to eradicate racism is to ignore race as a factor entirely like our foreign friends do.
I used to think that as well. I was surprised to learn that this is, in fact, racist.
I was surprised to see my name associated with this. I find asian women unattractive, and have objections to marrying one that are so significant to ensure I likely never would.
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 15, 2013, 01:14:51 PM
I was surprised to see my name associated with this. I find asian women unattractive, and have objections to marrying one that are so significant to ensure I likely never would.
That is surprising I thought you were a Japanophile. But I guess being one does not necessarily mean you want to marry a Japanese woman.
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
You're preaching to the choir. But if you wipe all race consciousness from your mind you'll get into some awkward situations, unless you can get all other Americans to do so as well simultaneously.
Quote
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Completely misread me :P I'm saying foreigners lack that chip that gets implanted in our American brains to make us overly concerned about race. And that I get amused with some of the things that happen with naive foreigners who lack that chip.
Quote from: derspiess on May 15, 2013, 01:22:13 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
You're preaching to the choir. But if you wipe all race consciousness from your mind you'll get into some awkward situations, unless you can get all other Americans to do so as well simultaneously.
Quote
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Completely misread me :P I'm saying foreigners lack that chip that gets implanted in our American brains to make us overly concerned about race. And that I get amused with some of the things that happen with naive foreigners who lack that chip.
Yep, totally misread you. :lol:
Agree on all points. :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 01:19:48 PM
That is surprising I thought you were a Japanophile. But I guess being one does not necessarily mean you want to marry a Japanese woman.
:huh: Everyone knows Japanese are not asians. They are honorary aryans!
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 15, 2013, 01:33:53 PM
:huh: Everyone knows Japanese are not asians. They are honorary aryans!
:lol:
Gotcha.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 10:13:28 AM
No, no, no...keep the striped pajamas on, baby.
That made me wet.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 09:49:35 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 09:46:37 AM
One suspects that some of these fellows are gonna be dissapointed on the whole "demure and submissive" thing. :D
Ain't that the fucking truth.
I'm pretty sure I've already told the story about the time I met a medic at a MASH in Korea who told me that the highest attempted suicide rate among GIs was guys who had just married Korean girls.
Once the ring's on the finger, no need any longer to maintain the facade.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 01:01:06 PMStrange considering that the only way to eradicate racism is to ignore race as a factor entirely like our foreign friends do.
I'm certainly not saying that there is no racism outside of the US, nor that non-Americans ignore racism.
However, it does seem there is a very distinctly American conception of race and a distinct approach to how that conception is used to filter and approach all kinds of things in sometimes surprising (at least to me) ways.
I've been trying to nail some of those differences down, but it's a complex subject. It seems that maybe one thing is the primacy of expansive racial identification categories - like Asian, Black, White, Muslim, Hispanic etc - and the way they are used to filter and understand all sorts of experiences.
I mean, I think it's pretty universal for people to stereotype members of different groups and lump them all vaguely similar people into large internally undifferentiated groups. Pretty much everyone does that to a lesser or greater degree. What seems to me a peculiar distinction of the American approach is the degree in which those large categories have cultural currency and inform the self-understanding of its members.
For example, there is a huge body of work - formal and informal - inquiring into and documenting what it's like to be Asian American. There's Asian American theatre and literature studies; there are concerns about Asian admittance to universities; there are Asian American caucuses in all sorts of groups and organizations; there is polling and inquiry into the behaviour of Asian Americans when it comes to elections, and when it comes to marketing; there are expectations about how Asian Americans behave, what their dating prospects are like, how they are portrayed in the media, how their relationships between parents and children play out, the obstacles they face in life and the advantages they may have, and so on and so forth.
And in my observation, this is just as much internal to Asian Americans as it is external to them. Asian Americans are supposed to have a number of experiences and traits in common, and this is basically considered that natural way of things.
On the other hand, there is much less focus on on and expression of the collective experience of what it's like to be say, Korean American, a recent immigrant, someone with parents who are academics or of parents who a small shop owners, or any other possible grouping - whether of greater or lesser granularity.
It's like the American melting pot is very successful at melting disparate groups into these larger racial groupings like Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, etc and erasing or minimizing internal differences, but that it's having a much harder time melting those large, differentiated lumps.
When I come across expressions of this - whether it's an American commenting on a relationship or a political analysis or cultural commentary or whatever - it feels a bit like it would if I had an old school Communist applying their analysis to all facets of life even in casual conversation; it's odd. Like, you'd have stereotypes about what relationships between someone working class and a member of the intelligentsia is like; there'd be a lumpen proletariat caucus of the Writer's Guild; you'd commonly see lists in magazines of 10 great bourgeois dishes to try while cooking at home; dating site entries would include a your social class as standard practice; people would preface a statement with a "as a member of the rural working class..."; and so on.
It's a taxonomy and it is without a doubt grounded in all sorts of realities, but the specifics of it and the way it seems to be used in almost all contexts is distinct to the US in my observation.
Yakie:
America is one gigantic open-air prison and if you don't join a gang you will get eaten alive.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2013, 02:13:41 PM
Yakie:
America is one gigantic open-air prison and if you don't join a gang you will get eaten alive.
It does seem there are some parallels there.
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
Well, there's tall, and then there's you. :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
Well, there's tall, and then there's you. :P
Whaddya mean. :mad:
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
Well, there's tall, and then there's you. :P
Whaddya mean. :mad:
Don't let shorty there get you down. ;)
The tall thing is true. Being tall is the number one most correlated factor in attraction for men. I think I saw an OKC trends thing about it. They come up with all kinds of crazy stuff there. Like this. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2Fgaystraight%2FWhichIsBiggerCredit.png&hash=6d61a5f307565d520954abef231e7f16d12fa013)
Edit: Found it. Seedy's number is right on the money. Pun intended.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2Flies%2FMessagesPerWeek.png&hash=1ab27788578dd7521001c830bf5d6b30d83ed6ac)
FWIW at 5'10" I've always felt like I got in under the wire on an important metric. I know a lot of guys slightly shorter than me that have specifically said they've had problems over women not wanting to date them over their height, an experience totally foreign to me. There are women taller than me, but out of women 5'10"+ that I've personally known or interacted with I'd say less than 2% are women I'd want to date (based on physical characteristics--I do not like large-framed women, even ones who are healthy weight.)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 05:57:35 PM
The tall thing is true. Being tall is the number one most correlated factor in attraction for men. I think I saw an OKC trends thing about it. They come up with all kinds of crazy stuff there. Like this. :lol:
(charts 'n stuff)
See, I am in that big "so tall he scares me" drop off. :(
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 15, 2013, 01:22:13 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Oh, I don't think so at all. I think that we, as Americans, really do have an unhealthy concern over race, and we don't know it because we have very little to compare it to. Most Americans never live elsewhere, so they don't see the difference.
You're preaching to the choir. But if you wipe all race consciousness from your mind you'll get into some awkward situations, unless you can get all other Americans to do so as well simultaneously.
Quote
I also don't think it's a "chip" on their shoulder at all. I think it's confusion on why we place so much emphasis on something so unimportant.
Completely misread me :P I'm saying foreigners lack that chip that gets implanted in our American brains to make us overly concerned about race. And that I get amused with some of the things that happen with naive foreigners who lack that chip.
Yep, totally misread you. :lol:
Agree on all points. :hug:
Yeah colorblindness works out wonderfully.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 09:57:12 AM
QuoteBut you have asked what is creepy about it - and it is this: the concern that someone expressing "yellow fever" is some sort of Lettowish fetishist, rather than simply expressing a preference like "I like redheads".
I am sure there are plenty of creepy guys with a preference for redheads. But the way I hear the 'fetishize Asian women' thing is that this is a common thing that is a symptom of vile western racism rather than just a few sociopathic creeps being creepy.
I like red hair but I think it'd be creepy if someone would only date redheads.
Anyway, to respond to Jake's stupid pussy-bleed post.
America has a unique history that has lead to racial groups developing unique communities while also being part of the greater American whole. There aren't any immediate parallels in most other countries. The United States is really the only country I can think of that has had successive waves of immigration in which immigrants in numbers large enough to be a substantial portion of our population have come in and ultimately made up a large portion of the American demographic. I certainly know basically all countries in Asia, and Europe have simply never experienced such a thing. Europe, due to a combination of a declining or stagnant native population and increasing immigration from low income Muslim and Eastern European countries are now getting a taste of it but I think it takes several generations to see how it will play out.
In the rest of the Americas probably the only country with close to an experience like ours would be Brazil.
But I see things at a greater scale than Jake, so to me I see a long history of remarkable Americanization, the likes of which I've never heard of anywhere else in history. After the Revolution the two big immigrant waves in the 19th century were the Germans and the Irish. Both came and out of necessity established their own, separate communities. Irish-American and German-American became identities just like Jake is talking about in his post. They were at first widely disliked. The German-Americans were, despite initially retaining their native tongue, the most accepted. This is because overall they were a wealthier immigrant group that settled throughout the Midwest, often with enough money to start their own farms and communities so they were not interfering in the established WASP culture.
The Irish, being poorer, overwhelmingly Catholic, and by necessity having to live basically in the slums next to the established centers of WASP America engendered great prejudice and hatred. In a sense, this made the Irish-American community stronger. By the early 20th century most German Americans no longer spoke German, their church services were conducted in English and there was little institutional racism directed against them. When WWI came and anti-German sentiment spread, it was all too convenient for them to spread the last vestiges of Germanic heritage and Anglicize their names, the few remaining German newspapers and German-language churches became essentially unheard of after that point. At that point German-Americans were totally assimilated.
The Irish even into the 50s it was hard for them to find work in many cities, with lots of institutional bias against them. But over time, both their Catholicism and their Irishness became accepted. Aside from random binge drinking in March there is little left to mark any true "Irish American" community, and they are now completely assimilated.
The Italian Americans followed a similar path as the Irish, they came later and in large numbers, faced extreme prejudice and while it's happened a bit after the Irish, they are now basically entirely Americanized. But this was not a fast process. Large scale German and Irish immigration started in the 1840s and earlier and the Irish-American community wasn't fully integrated into America until the 1970s and even a little later in some pockets of the country. Italian Americans came heavily from the 1890s-1920s, and arguably assimilated faster as they made that transition to fully Americanized by the 70s-80s.
Black Americans came in large numbers very early on, enslaved, after emancipation they faced the most discrimination of any of the non-WASP groups. This continues today. That discrimination is what keeps the community distinct, it demands it, really. But over time we have softened our discriminatory position toward blacks. With the black community, their experience is so distinct and their segregation so complete for so long that I think they've actually developed a "parallel American culture" that shares a lot of stuff with the rest of American culture but is distinct, probably permanent, but just as validly American as the rest of mainstream American culture.
Asian Americans had a few aborted waves of immigration (the Chinese in the 1800s for example--but most of them went back to China) and now in the last 30 years a more sustained wave of immigration that will see them becoming an ever larger portion of the American demographic. By and large, while Asian-Americans have somewhat formed a culture distinct to itself like the Germans/Irish/Italians before them, for several reasons I doubt it will persist as long or be as distinct. For one, the Irish/German/Italian immigrants who came over all had shared language, religion and etc values. This allowed them to form very tight-knit, highly insular communities. "Asian-American" covers people from a continent that is most of the world's population and land mass and a place of extremely diverse family values, cuisine, language, religion and etc. So while they have some shared culture based on "being from Asia and living in America", it's nothing like the distinct communities history saw with the "big three" I've mentioned. For that reason, and because institutional and cultural racism against Asians is quite mild and unremarkable compared to that prior groups (and blacks even today) face, I doubt after a few generations if Asian Americans will be anything but fully Americanized. Unlike the Germans/Irish/Italians in the past they don't even seem to have any real desire in most cases to maintain a persistent, distinct community.
But it's shocking how anyone can be surprised race is so important in America. We're a country built on massive accumulation of different racial groups over time that have each been important parts of building the country. There's also been, in living memory, extreme legal discrimination that makes race relations and incredibly important part of American culture. I find this "shock" akin to someone going to South Africa and being shocked there might be some focus on race.
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
I like red hair but I think it'd be creepy if someone would only date redheads.
Why? You only date men, and that's not creepy.
I don't like the word creepy, actually. It's completely subjective and has a tendency to be wielded as a weapon.
:lol: pussy-bleed.
Despite being a 1% fanboi and Yankeetard, Otto's OK sometimes.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 15, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
Anyway, to respond to Jake's stupid pussy-bleed post.
America has a unique history that has lead to racial groups developing unique communities while also being part of the greater American whole. There aren't any immediate parallels in most other countries. The United States is really the only country I can think of that has had successive waves of immigration in which immigrants in numbers large enough to be a substantial portion of our population have come in and ultimately made up a large portion of the American demographic. I certainly know basically all countries in Asia, and Europe have simply never experienced such a thing. Europe, due to a combination of a declining or stagnant native population and increasing immigration from low income Muslim and Eastern European countries are now getting a taste of it but I think it takes several generations to see how it will play out.
In the rest of the Americas probably the only country with close to an experience like ours would be Brazil.
Canada. And Australia have had massive amounts of immigration.
What was specific to the US (and Brazil) was slavery.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 06:30:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
I like red hair but I think it'd be creepy if someone would only date redheads.
Why? You only date men, and that's not creepy.
I'm not sure everyone would agree with you. But at any rate, as something very atypical, it'd make me wonder why someone was limiting themselves so much. What exactly is causing them to fixate on that attribute.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 06:30:15 PM
I don't like the word creepy, actually. It's completely subjective and has a tendency to be wielded as a weapon.
Okay.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 15, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
Anyway, to respond to Jake's stupid pussy-bleed post.
I'm sorry I made you bleed :(
Besides that, most of your points were well taken.
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 15, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Somebody want to explain the difference between being attracted to and fetishizing? And I am sort of taken aback that having a certain type you are attracted to is twisted somehow.
This is not the first time I have heard outrage over this before, as if non-asian men wanting to sleep with asian women is equivalent to the most vile racism, and I just do not get the horribleness of this. How exactly is this any more creepy than Cal liking big boobs?
Yeah, I don't get it either; it all falls under secondary sex traits. Short hair, redhead, asian, bust size, etc.
And I don't see anybody stirring up any shit over the multitudes of women that won't date anybody under 5'10".
Meh, believe it or not, but height has never done me a damned bit of good.
That's because you're 7'2". There's a happy medium.
Otto, some of your facts were wrong. For example, the first wave of German immigration to America began well before the American Revolution; nearly all of my German ancestors (and my dad's family is essentially 100% German/ic -- qualifier is because many of them were from Switzerland, Alsace, or Lorraine, but all spoke some Germanic dialect) were in America prior to 1740. Also, I can't say for sure when "most" Germans assimilated but in the case of my dad's family, they definitely spoke German as their everyday language at least until WWI and I believe my grandfather still spoke it as his everyday language until he went to college, which was in 1942. My dad grew up primarily speaking English, but his parents tried very hard to get him to learn German but he wasn't interested... my aunt speaks Pennsylvania Dutch German fairly well though. Despite his lack of interest, when I was a kid he would typically yell at or give stern orders to my brother and I in German, which is probably him mimicing his dad.
Even today some of the Lutheran churches in central PA have occasional services in German, though I believe it's Pennsylvania Dutch which at this point isn't really related to any variety of continental German anymore. Also, obviously you know that the Amish and some Mennonites still to this day speak German/Pennsylvania Dutch as their everyday language and are quite far from being totally assimilated.
Also, I know less about the Italian-American community but it seems very late to have them 'fully assimilating' by the 1970s. I grew up in a community of mostly Jews and Irish and Italian Catholics and there's no way those kids weren't totally American even if they ate more lasagna than usual. :sleep:
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 02:00:03 PM
When I come across expressions of this - whether it's an American commenting on a relationship or a political analysis or cultural commentary or whatever - it feels a bit like it would if I had an old school Communist applying their analysis to all facets of life even in casual conversation; it's odd. Like, you'd have stereotypes about what relationships between someone working class and a member of the intelligentsia is like; there'd be a lumpen proletariat caucus of the Writer's Guild; you'd commonly see lists in magazines of 10 great bourgeois dishes to try while cooking at home; dating site entries would include a your social class as standard practice; people would preface a statement with a "as a member of the rural working class..."; and so on.
That's pretty fucking hot.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 06:30:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
I like red hair but I think it'd be creepy if someone would only date redheads.
Why? You only date men, and that's not creepy.
I don't like the word creepy, actually. It's completely subjective and has a tendency to be wielded as a weapon.
Concur. It's the closest male equivalent of "slut."
Hey Ide:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/4929385/Do-men-like-you-naked-We-ask-panel-to-rate-six-brave-girls-on-photoshoot.html
NSFW
I like the first Indian chick the best, but why did she get to hide her boobs? Not fair :(
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 01:19:48 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 15, 2013, 01:14:51 PM
I was surprised to see my name associated with this. I find asian women unattractive, and have objections to marrying one that are so significant to ensure I likely never would.
That is surprising I thought you were a Japanophile. But I guess being one does not necessarily mean you want to marry a Japanese woman.
The key here is
Women. Lettow is definitely a closet case.
We don't want him. Take him back.
Europeans seem to have quite a few hang ups about race. Not as many as they did in the 1940's admittedly.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 15, 2013, 08:52:20 PM
Hey Ide:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/4929385/Do-men-like-you-naked-We-ask-panel-to-rate-six-brave-girls-on-photoshoot.html
NSFW
Nobody said anything negative.
Yeah, I thought that was kind of BS.
Never saw a chocolate Michelin model before.
:lol:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 05:57:35 PM
The tall thing is true. Being tall is the number one most correlated factor in attraction for men. I think I saw an OKC trends thing about it. They come up with all kinds of crazy stuff there. Like this. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2Fgaight%2FWhichIsBiggerCredit.png&hash=494393c6061bb491324bcd2d42f56976c168e0be)
Edit: Found it. Seedy's number is right on the money. Pun intended.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2FliessagesPerWeek.png&hash=96ee0ab678342685433459965867cd5712bb3126)
:blink:
Whats with all the midget love from the men?
Spinners, dawg.
Quote from: Tyr on May 15, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 05:57:35 PM
The tall thing is true. Being tall is the number one most correlated factor in attraction for men. I think I saw an OKC trends thing about it. They come up with all kinds of crazy stuff there. Like this. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2Fgaight%2FWhichIsBiggerCredit.png&hash=494393c6061bb491324bcd2d42f56976c168e0be)
Edit: Found it. Seedy's number is right on the money. Pun intended.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.okcimg.com%2Fblog%2FliessagesPerWeek.png&hash=96ee0ab678342685433459965867cd5712bb3126)
:blink:
Whats with all the midget love from the men?
I like a girl I can toss around on the bed. What can I say?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2013, 09:07:18 PM
Never saw a chocolate Michelin model before.
Uh, yeah. And the entire panel was completely full of shit when it came to her. Anonymous comments would have been more truthful, but of course they wouldn't dare include them.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 09:40:11 PM
I like a girl I can toss around on the bed. What can I say?
Fair enough for preferring small girls (though I like taller ones. Shortness is a huge negative factor) but under 5 foot? On the graph that's not only OK but actually the most desirable.
Supply and demand. Fewer tiny girls so they get more hits.
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2013, 08:43:53 PM
Otto, some of your facts were wrong. For example, the first wave of German immigration to America began well before the American Revolution; nearly all of my German ancestors (and my dad's family is essentially 100% German/ic -- qualifier is because many of them were from Switzerland, Alsace, or Lorraine, but all spoke some Germanic dialect) were in America prior to 1740. Also, I can't say for sure when "most" Germans assimilated but in the case of my dad's family, they definitely spoke German as their everyday language at least until WWI and I believe my grandfather still spoke it as his everyday language until he went to college, which was in 1942. My dad grew up primarily speaking English, but his parents tried very hard to get him to learn German but he wasn't interested... my aunt speaks Pennsylvania Dutch German fairly well though. Despite his lack of interest, when I was a kid he would typically yell at or give stern orders to my brother and I in German, which is probably him mimicing his dad.
Even today some of the Lutheran churches in central PA have occasional services in German, though I believe it's Pennsylvania Dutch which at this point isn't really related to any variety of continental German anymore. Also, obviously you know that the Amish and some Mennonites still to this day speak German/Pennsylvania Dutch as their everyday language and are quite far from being totally assimilated.
Also, I know less about the Italian-American community but it seems very late to have them 'fully assimilating' by the 1970s. I grew up in a community of mostly Jews and Irish and Italian Catholics and there's no way those kids weren't totally American even if they ate more lasagna than usual. :sleep:
You would have some points in regard to "correcting me" if I had made the claims you appear to be refuting. Yes, German American immigration began before the Revolution but the wave that had the most impact on American society and the wave that involved the most raw Germans was from the early 1800s-WWI. Prior to the Revolution I would wager that basically no country in Europe wasn't represented by at least
some level of presence in the thirteen colonies. If you study American history from pre-Revolutionary days you hear a lot about the Palatinate Germans who come over, but they really weren't that big of an impact on American life. They mostly lived in small communities in Pennsylvania, and in fact because they predominantly settled in Pennsylvania almost to the total exclusion of other States it limited their impact. The massive wave of German immigration that came later, in the 1800s, saw American society having to come to grips with the presence of Germans basically everywhere (even though again, they faced less discrimination than the Irish in part because they were better equipped to keep to themselves.) The portion of German-Ancestry Americans basically doubled during the 1800s from below 10% right after the Constitution was signed to slightly over 20% by the early 1900s. That's a major deal, the Germans were the single largest ancestry group to come to America during the 19th century whereas English was by far the biggest ancestry group to come before 1800.
It isn't true, but technically German Americans are the single largest ancestry group in the United States today at 17% or 50m people. (I say it isn't true because most likely English is the largest group. But to an American if you're white and can't claim an "interesting" heritage like German/Italian/Irish/etc you tend to mark "American" as your ancestry group in the census. This trend has continued over time as people who might have 6/8 great-grandparents of primarily English heritage claiming "Irish" or "Swedish" ancestry because they think that's the most interesting. From 1980-2010 the number of people reporting English heritage dropped by 1/2 from almost 50m in 1980 to 23m today...almost entirely a by product of people reclassifying their heritage for no real material reason. But either way, German Americans are a significant ancestry group even though they are probably not as large as the English ancestry group.]
As for Pennsylvania Dutch, it's on a list of dying languages and is considered extremely obscure and that was true 100 years ago. The Amish mostly are not part of our immigrant population since they've been here forever and never interacted with "English" society, they're a weird religious anomaly and not part of the American fabric. As for German Church services and German spoken in the home, statistically it died off around WWI--that means you'll find all kinds of anecdotal stories to the contrary but the overall statistical picture shows little common usage of German after that point in the United States.
Even in 1914 the vast majority of older German-Americans attended German language church services but were
bilingual otherwise and the vast majority of younger Germans had started to attend English language Church services and while they were fluent in German primarily spoke English in their homes.
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2013, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 15, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
Anyway, to respond to Jake's stupid pussy-bleed post.
America has a unique history that has lead to racial groups developing unique communities while also being part of the greater American whole. There aren't any immediate parallels in most other countries. The United States is really the only country I can think of that has had successive waves of immigration in which immigrants in numbers large enough to be a substantial portion of our population have come in and ultimately made up a large portion of the American demographic. I certainly know basically all countries in Asia, and Europe have simply never experienced such a thing. Europe, due to a combination of a declining or stagnant native population and increasing immigration from low income Muslim and Eastern European countries are now getting a taste of it but I think it takes several generations to see how it will play out.
In the rest of the Americas probably the only country with close to an experience like ours would be Brazil.
Canada. And Australia have had massive amounts of immigration.
What was specific to the US (and Brazil) was slavery.
Honky please. Canada was an English settled and colonized area that also got to keep conquered Quebec, that's about the only real diversity you have. If you add up the percentage of Canada's population (excluding Irish who are not good historically at assimilating with British Protestants) of British Isles origin you get 36.85%, 32.22% in addition identifies as "Canadian" which means most likely persons of either French (Quebec has the highest percentage of residents who identify as "Canadian") or English ancestry. All told 83% of your population identifies as either Canadian, British Isles origin, or French.
Just not comparable. We've absorbed and are absorbing groups of much larger size, disparate religious and linguistic backgrounds and etc. Something like 13% of our current population is Hispanic, 12% is black. That doesn't even account for the much larger share of assimilated groups (17% German, 5% Italian etc.)
And realistically Canada shows what I talk about. Not only are they not heavily marked by any distinctive immigrant group, Canada itself is really nothing. We joke a lot, but the truth is Canada has no real culture or uniqueness at all. It's just a geographic region that for historical and convenience reasons became a politically independent entity. A thousand years from now whatever feature governments and states will have I can be certain of one thing about the United States--history will remember it and there will be as many books about us and our way of life as there are today about the Romans. Canada will be an obscure piece of ephemera, like those short-lived Kingdoms that came and went like dust in the wind after the fall of the Roman Empire that no one other than people who play Paradox Games or history nerds could tell you about.
Canada is basically like Ohio, sizable but insignificant culturally.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 18, 2013, 08:54:54 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2013, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 15, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
Anyway, to respond to Jake's stupid pussy-bleed post.
America has a unique history that has lead to racial groups developing unique communities while also being part of the greater American whole. There aren't any immediate parallels in most other countries. The United States is really the only country I can think of that has had successive waves of immigration in which immigrants in numbers large enough to be a substantial portion of our population have come in and ultimately made up a large portion of the American demographic. I certainly know basically all countries in Asia, and Europe have simply never experienced such a thing. Europe, due to a combination of a declining or stagnant native population and increasing immigration from low income Muslim and Eastern European countries are now getting a taste of it but I think it takes several generations to see how it will play out.
In the rest of the Americas probably the only country with close to an experience like ours would be Brazil.
Canada. And Australia have had massive amounts of immigration.
What was specific to the US (and Brazil) was slavery.
Honky please. Canada was an English settled and colonized area that also got to keep conquered Quebec, that's about the only real diversity you have. If you add up the percentage of Canada's population (excluding Irish who are not good historically at assimilating with British Protestants) of British Isles origin you get 36.85%, 32.22% in addition identifies as "Canadian" which means most likely persons of either French (Quebec has the highest percentage of residents who identify as "Canadian") or English ancestry. All told 83% of your population identifies as either Canadian, British Isles origin, or French.
Just not comparable. We've absorbed and are absorbing groups of much larger size, disparate religious and linguistic backgrounds and etc. Something like 13% of our current population is Hispanic, 12% is black. That doesn't even account for the much larger share of assimilated groups (17% German, 5% Italian etc.)
What you talking about Willis?
You realize you're talking to a Ukrainian-Canadian right? We absorbed enormous non-english-speaking population groups. You're being fooled by the people who answer "Canadian" on the census. Since the census allows for multiple answers to the ethnic heritage question you can't just add up the Canadian, British, French and Irish numbers, then ignore the rest. The numbers don't add up to 100%.
Besides, you also ignore that right now, per capita, we take in 3x the immigrants that you do.
Well you have endless empty land, I'd hope you'd try to fill it at some point. Get back to me when you've got parts of the country where 40-50% of the people with dark skin aren't white dudes who laid out in the sun too long.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 18, 2013, 09:00:16 AM
Canada is basically like Ohio, sizable but insignificant culturally.
I LOL'd.
Looks like Otto has started drinking again :cheers:
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 15, 2013, 08:52:20 PM
Hey Ide:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/4929385/Do-men-like-you-naked-We-ask-panel-to-rate-six-brave-girls-on-photoshoot.html
NSFW
Two are hot--the skinny girl and the other less skinny but still thin one--and only one's really unpleasant. I think we all know which one that is. (Edit: regarding the lack of negativity from the panel, if you read between the lines, the comments are largely negative but sugarcoated, except for the one guy that likes plowing tubbos, that is. :lol: "You know she'd be a lot of fun [with her clothes on, on the other side of a table preferably]."
If the 53 year old were 33, she'd be plenty hot too. I give her a pass on age.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 15, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
Asian Americans had a few aborted waves of immigration (the Chinese in the 1800s for example--but most of them went back to China) and now in the last 30 years a more sustained wave of immigration that will see them becoming an ever larger portion of the American demographic. By and large, while Asian-Americans have somewhat formed a culture distinct to itself like the Germans/Irish/Italians before them, for several reasons I doubt it will persist as long or be as distinct. For one, the Irish/German/Italian immigrants who came over all had shared language, religion and etc values. This allowed them to form very tight-knit, highly insular communities. "Asian-American" covers people from a continent that is most of the world's population and land mass and a place of extremely diverse family values, cuisine, language, religion and etc. So while they have some shared culture based on "being from Asia and living in America", it's nothing like the distinct communities history saw with the "big three" I've mentioned. For that reason, and because institutional and cultural racism against Asians is quite mild and unremarkable compared to that prior groups (and blacks even today) face, I doubt after a few generations if Asian Americans will be anything but fully Americanized. Unlike the Germans/Irish/Italians in the past they don't even seem to have any real desire in most cases to maintain a persistent, distinct community.
Asians were kept out of America by very strict quotas until the 1960s when the U.S. invaded more parts of that continent and then had to accept the refugees. Now inflow of new Asian immigrants outnumber new Hispanic immigrants since 2011.
Asians seem to be better integrated because they are wealthier and more educated, and white American men like to marry Asian women; highest rate of interracial marriage among whites and Asians in the U.S.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 18, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 18, 2013, 09:00:16 AM
Canada is basically like Ohio, sizable but insignificant culturally.
I LOL'd.
I feel vaguely insulted to be compared to Canadians.
It's flat, white, and with no discernible cultural flavor save a vaguely Teutonic one which is merely reduced to beer and Schmidt's Sausage Haus, you know you're a Wonder Bread state when it takes Gay Pride to throw some color around Columbus.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 18, 2013, 03:15:23 PM
It's flat, white, and with no discernible cultural flavor save a vaguely Teutonic one which is merely reduced to beer and Schmidt's Sausage Haus, you know you're a Wonder Bread state when it takes Gay Pride to throw some color around Columbus.
Hey, we also have Rob Portman.
:weep:
Quote from: derspiess on May 18, 2013, 03:18:05 PM
Hey, we also have Rob Portman.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F000%2F465%2F884%2Ff61.jpg&hash=b0b1905c5cd7614dd946036b0467c9a94eab4176)
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 18, 2013, 09:27:20 AM
Well you have endless empty land, I'd hope you'd try to fill it at some point. Get back to me when you've got parts of the country where 40-50% of the people with dark skin aren't white dudes who laid out in the sun too long.
Vancouver.
And of course, NWT and Nunavut.
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 10:37:44 AM
Heh, reminds me of that article on general preferences by racial characteristics in NA - as I recall Asian women did well, Asian men did poorly.
It's very strange. I think that Asian men are attractive, but I've never had any desire to date one. No idea why.
It's very strange. I think that Asian girls are attractive, skinny with small boobs, but I've never had any desire to date one. No idea why.
Because they're goyim?
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2013, 12:52:06 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2013, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 15, 2013, 10:37:44 AM
Heh, reminds me of that article on general preferences by racial characteristics in NA - as I recall Asian women did well, Asian men did poorly.
It's very strange. I think that Asian men are attractive, but I've never had any desire to date one. No idea why.
It's very strange. I think that Asian girls are attractive, skinny with small boobs, but I've never had any desire to date one. No idea why.
Seigebreaker! You're alive!
Hey Seeb. :cheers:
Remember that time something happened in Canada? No, of course you don't--and no one else will either. The similarities with Ohio abound.
I'm fairly sure that Ohio did something vaguely memorable once :hmm:
Didn't they produce an enormously fat president a while back?
Quote from: Ideologue on May 18, 2013, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 15, 2013, 08:52:20 PM
Hey Ide:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/4929385/Do-men-like-you-naked-We-ask-panel-to-rate-six-brave-girls-on-photoshoot.html
NSFW
Two are hot--the skinny girl and the other less skinny but still thin one--and only one's really unpleasant. I think we all know which one that is. (Edit: regarding the lack of negativity from the panel, if you read between the lines, the comments are largely negative but sugarcoated, except for the one guy that likes plowing tubbos, that is. :lol: "You know she'd be a lot of fun [with her clothes on, on the other side of a table preferably]."
If the 53 year old were 33, she'd be plenty hot too. I give her a pass on age.
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 19, 2013, 03:54:19 PM
I'm fairly sure that Ohio did something vaguely memorable once :hmm:
Didn't they produce an enormously fat president a while back?
Yes.
A remarkably mediocre crop of presidents also.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 19, 2013, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 19, 2013, 03:54:19 PM
I'm fairly sure that Ohio did something vaguely memorable once :hmm:
Didn't they produce an enormously fat president a while back?
Yes.
A remarkably mediocre crop of presidents also.
:( I wish we could have mediocre presidents again.
Ohio gave us Sherman and Grant, so show some damned respect :angry:
Yes, Credit Mobilier as well as Tea Pot Dome. :D
I thought Grant was from Illinois. Moved from Ohio?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2013, 06:34:02 PM
I thought Grant was from Illinois. Moved from Ohio?
Born in Ohio, moved to Illinois. Lived in Missouri too.
Born just a few miles east of me :showoff:
We also have LeMay, BBQ king of japan.
There were a couple of dudes who invented a flying machine. :P
Quote from: fahdiz on May 19, 2013, 03:57:55 PM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
I see what you did there.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 20, 2013, 01:50:45 AM
There were a couple of dudes who invented a flying machine. :P
So you're saying the best Ohioans are the ones who leave the state? :hmm:
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on May 19, 2013, 03:57:55 PM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
I see what you did there.
Man, I didn't. Thinner women are emotionally harder to lose? TELL ME MORE WISE ONE.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 20, 2013, 03:47:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on May 19, 2013, 03:57:55 PM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
I see what you did there.
Man, I didn't. Thinner women are emotionally harder to lose? TELL ME MORE WISE ONE.
You, on the other hand, did not see what he did there.
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 02:34:34 AM
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
I see what you did there.
Quote from: derspiess on May 19, 2013, 06:18:11 PM
Ohio gave us Sherman and Grant, so show some damned respect :angry:
Kentucky provided both Lincoln and Jeff Davis, as well as the whiskey that Grant somehow managed to subsist on. :showoff:
This thread has gone full mew.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 15, 2013, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 15, 2013, 06:30:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
I like red hair but I think it'd be creepy if someone would only date redheads.
Why? You only date men, and that's not creepy.
I don't like the word creepy, actually. It's completely subjective and has a tendency to be wielded as a weapon.
Concur. It's the closest male equivalent of "slut."
I forgot - if you don't want to be considered creepy, stop being fucking creepy. ;)
OMG creep-shaming!
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2013, 12:56:30 AM
Because they're goyim?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews :P
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 02:34:34 AM
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
Incorrect. I am a member of First Families of Ohio :contract:
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 02:34:34 AM
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
Incorrect. I am a member of First Families of Ohio :contract:
Huh. When did they live there? My ancesters moved to Gallia County circa 1815.
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 02:34:34 AM
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
Incorrect. I am a member of First Families of Ohio :contract:
embrace your west virginity!
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 09:24:29 AMembrace your west virginity!
I thought he was full of Delawareness? :hmm:
As usual you thought wrong.
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2013, 09:15:43 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 02:34:34 AM
None of our current Ohioans are "real" Ohioans
Incorrect. I am a member of First Families of Ohio :contract:
Huh. When did they live there? My ancesters moved to Gallia County circa 1815.
About that same time-- settled in Lawrence County. Cutoff is 1820 to qualify. On my mom's side I think they got there in the 1830s.
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2013, 09:37:30 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 09:24:29 AMembrace your west virginity!
I thought he was full of Delawareness? :hmm:
I was for about 8 years.
Well it's true!
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 10:01:06 AM
Well it's true!
My thoughts are no more false than most on Languish!
So...yeah probably.
In this case though, I was right. -_-
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2013, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 10:01:06 AM
Well it's true!
My thoughts are no more false than most on Languish!
So...yeah probably.
In this case though, I was right. -_-
No you weren't. :huh:
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 10:21:13 AM
No you weren't. :huh:
He said he was for 8 years. :contract:
And in any case I didn't really think he was from Delaware just directing attention to his well known love for the Blue Hens.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 20, 2013, 03:47:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on May 19, 2013, 03:57:55 PM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
I see what you did there.
Man, I didn't. Thinner women are emotionally harder to lose? TELL ME MORE WISE ONE.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FFilm%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F10%2F15%2F1287136825752%2FThis-Is-Spinal-Tap-006.jpg&hash=77d0755cd003287d542a2fc2137775ca4184d345)
Bro, he was in diapers when that came out. :sleep:
I saw the documentary this thread is based on...
Yeah, the guy starts out being shown as "creepy perv", but by the end is just an eccentric regular, nerdy kinda overseas bride seeker. Nothing too outrageous.
His "bride", is definitely an overemotional, manipulative minx, though. She intentionally sets out to track down one of his previous interests in order to get her to hate his guts...because apparently, ex's being friends is "against Chinese culture, and he doesn't understand". Plus the emotional semi-regular emotional blow ups about previous women until she is satisfied that he is "hers".
If there is a major flaw in the documentary, it is that the filmmaker gets herself too caught up into her own film, to the extent that you wonder if it is about the subjects, or almost of biopic of herself.
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 20, 2013, 02:34:36 PM
His "bride", is definitely an overemotional, manipulative minx, though. She intentionally sets out to track down one of his previous interests in order to get her to hate his guts...because apparently, ex's being friends is "against Chinese culture, and he doesn't understand". Plus the emotional semi-regular emotional blow ups about previous women until she is satisfied that he is "hers".
No, no Dragon Lady flashbacks there.
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 20, 2013, 02:34:36 PM
If there is a major flaw in the documentary, it is that the filmmaker gets herself too caught up into her own film, to the extent that you wonder if it is about the subjects, or almost of biopic of herself.
Big surprise there.
When I hear the phrase "documentary filmmaker", I reach for my Beretta.
When I hear the phrase "documentary filmmaker", I also hear Caliga's magazine fall out of his Beretta.
The second I made that post I knew this was coming. :cool:
MAH CLIP
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 06:19:37 PM
When I hear the phrase "documentary filmmaker", I also hear Caliga's magazine fall out of his Beretta.
:lmfao:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent8.flixster.com%2Fquestion%2F68%2F34%2F67%2F6834678_std.jpg&hash=e354abc88f232166ce36c029317020c2417f0f6b)
:hug: Sorry Cal. It just strikes me funny. :lol:
Poor Cal. We all make mistakes.
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:58:18 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent8.flixster.com%2Fquestion%2F68%2F34%2F67%2F6834678_std.jpg&hash=e354abc88f232166ce36c029317020c2417f0f6b)
:D
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 20, 2013, 02:34:36 PM
...because apparently, ex's being friends is "against Chinese culture, and he doesn't understand". Plus the emotional semi-regular emotional blow ups about previous women until she is satisfied that he is "hers".
True story.
If you're dating a Chinese girl you've got to use some real finesse if you're going to pull the "friends with my ex" thing. Culturally it's pretty much a no go.
I've heard its the same for Japanese people too. Which is sad. Really makes reationships all seem a bit pointless.
Because they won't let you be friends with an ex?
I don't know if that's an Asian thing as much as it is a psycho-chick thing. Then again, there's a lot of overlap there.
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 06:50:35 AM
Because they won't let you be friends with an ex?
Because you can't be friends with exes.
Kind of a big message not to bother as you're just promising that bridges will be burned.
Yeah. I don't see the inability to hang out with exes as a sign that relationships are pointless.
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:44:17 AM
Yeah. I don't see the inability to hang out with exes as a sign that relationships are pointless.
I don't ever have that problem. All my exes are forever banished, never to be heard from again.
"I think we should just be friends.
"I've got a better idea--let's just be enemies."
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:44:17 AM
Yeah. I don't see the inability to hang out with exes as a sign that relationships are pointless.
I was grossly exagerating.
But it sucks that because you crossed the bridge into being in a relationship a good friend is therefore forever forbidden to you.
Quote from: Tyr on May 21, 2013, 08:48:48 AM
But it sucks that because you crossed the bridge into being in a relationship a good friend is therefore forever forbidden to you.
In my experience that is probably for the best. Mixing relationships and friendships has typically ended up poorly.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2013, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:44:17 AM
Yeah. I don't see the inability to hang out with exes as a sign that relationships are pointless.
I don't ever have that problem. All my exes are forever banished, never to be heard from again.
"I think we should just be friends.
"I've got a better idea--let's just be enemies."
So you're psycho chick?
When it's over, it's over.
I have nothing in my heart but good wishes for all those I've been romantically involved with. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2013, 09:50:05 AM
When it's over, it's over.
Agree, though it usually took a second breakup to get proper closure.
Closure? Are we a woman's talk show on Oxygen?
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 02:34:51 PM
Closure? Are we a woman's talk show on Oxygen?
:lol:
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 02:34:51 PM
Closure? Are we a woman's talk show on Oxygen?
I wish.
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 02:34:51 PM
Closure? Are we a woman's talk show on Oxygen?
That was insensitive.