Poll
Question:
Today, which of the flawed end-of-cold-war heroes you like/respect/admire the most?
Option 1: Reagan
votes: 9
Option 2: Thatcher
votes: 8
Option 3: John Paul II
votes: 7
Option 4: Kohl
votes: 1
Option 5: Mitterand
votes: 3
Option 6: Walesa
votes: 1
Option 7: Gorbachev
votes: 14
They all prove to be quite flawed, yet they still have huge followings globally. So which one is your favorite?
Who's the troll who voted for Miterrand?
Thatcher. Great leader and cold warrior.
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 09:48:17 AM
Who's the troll who voted for Miterrand?
I did. He stands above all others, being a wonderful human being.
Reagan. Sentimental reasons.
Vaclav Havel.
Any love for Brian Mulroney?
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 09:48:17 AM
Who's the troll who voted for Miterrand?
I did. He stands above all others, being a wonderful human being.
Because his feet are in your face?
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:26:57 AM
Any love for Brian Mulroney?
Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war warrior.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:26:57 AM
Any love for Brian Mulroney?
Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war warrior.
The word "warrior" does not appear anywhere in the original question.
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:50:12 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:26:57 AM
Any love for Brian Mulroney?
Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war warrior.
The word "warrior" does not appear anywhere in the original question.
Ok hero. Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war hero
I remember, as a young child, noticing that the guy with the thing on his face whom we were supposed to like wasn't on the news anymore and asking my mother what happened to him. So I voted for him.
Ray-Gun.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 11, 2013, 10:26:01 AM
Vaclav Havel.
Good point. I'd vote for him over Mitterand.
Where's David Hasselhoff? :mad:
Quote from: Warspite on April 11, 2013, 11:01:19 AM
Where's David Hasselhoff? :mad:
How dare you call the Hoff "flawed"? :mad:
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 10:07:06 AM
I did. He stands above all others, being a wonderful human being.
A Vichyite? :yuk:
Gorbi! Gorbi! Gorbi!
It was awesome when Rocky beat Ivan Drago and Gorby stood up and clapped for Rocky even though he represented Amerika. :cry:
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
Gorbi! Gorbi! Gorbi!
It was awesome when Rocky beat Ivan Drago and Gorby stood up and clapped for Rocky even though he represented Amerika. :cry:
:D
Quote from: Valmy on April 11, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 10:07:06 AM
I did. He stands above all others, being a wonderful human being.
A Vichyite? :yuk:
I :wub: 'ed a bit for DeGaulle when I heard his dismissal of Mitterand. "You again?"
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:22:01 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
Gorbi! Gorbi! Gorbi!
It was awesome when Rocky beat Ivan Drago and Gorby stood up and clapped for Rocky even though he represented Amerika. :cry:
:D
IF I CAN CHANGE
AND YOUSE CAN CHANGE
DEN EVERYBODY CAN CHANGE!
Cold War: over. :showoff:
John Paul II. Spoke 90 quadrillion languages, an extrordinarily deep thinker, possessed boundless energy and was an exceptional athlete to boot. I always got the sense that his opposition to Communism was less about Communism being anti-Christian and more about it being inhumane.
I didn't vote for JPII because I can't really see how he is "flawed" so I didn't see him as an appropriate choice for the poll. :sleep:
I voted for Gorby, because a) he is cool, and b) he's flawed what with that giant birthmark on his head. :smarty:
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
I didn't vote for JPII because I can't really see how he is "flawed" so I didn't see him as an appropriate choice for the poll. :sleep:
I voted for Gorby, because a) he is cool, and b) he's flawed what with that giant birthmark on his head. :smarty:
For Marti, "flawed" means "was not a champion of gay rights".
Gorby is overrated.
Quote from: fahdiz on April 11, 2013, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
I didn't vote for JPII because I can't really see how he is "flawed" so I didn't see him as an appropriate choice for the poll. :sleep:
I voted for Gorby, because a) he is cool, and b) he's flawed what with that giant birthmark on his head. :smarty:
For Marti, "flawed" means "was not a champion of gay rights".
But if JPII had been a champion of gay rights, he would have been a flawed Pope..... but since he wasn't, he therefore wasn't flawed. :sleep:
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Quote from: fahdiz on April 11, 2013, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
I didn't vote for JPII because I can't really see how he is "flawed" so I didn't see him as an appropriate choice for the poll. :sleep:
I voted for Gorby, because a) he is cool, and b) he's flawed what with that giant birthmark on his head. :smarty:
For Marti, "flawed" means "was not a champion of gay rights".
No, it means "feted serial child molesters and protected them from criminal prosecution". Also, "gagged theologians" and "spearheaded a mis-information campaign on condom use in Africa, which indirectly led to death of millions."
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Havel, Sakharov, Zhao Ziyang?
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Havel, Sakharov, Zhao Ziyang?
Yup, pretty much.
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Gorby is overrated.
The hagiography of Gorbachev has been pretty muted. Compare that to the quest to name something in every state and every county in the US after Ronald Reagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Ronald_Reagan).
Oh, if we really do mean "flawed", then I don't think Vaclav Havel would really count, esp. if you only consider Cold War period. If so, Deng Xiaoping. Probably the greatest leader of the period.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 10:51:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:50:12 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 10:26:57 AM
Any love for Brian Mulroney?
Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war warrior.
The word "warrior" does not appear anywhere in the original question.
Ok hero. Not sure what he had to do with being a cold war hero
Didn't he pull the Soviets' tail at some point over their genocide of the Ukes in the 30s?
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Eisenhower?
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
Gorbi! Gorbi! Gorbi!
It was awesome when Rocky beat Ivan Drago and Gorby stood up and clapped for Rocky even though he represented Amerika. :cry:
You realize that's just a movie, right? Rocky would never beat Ivan Drago in a real fight.
Quote from: The Brain on April 11, 2013, 01:18:56 PM
You realize that's just a movie, right? Rocky would never beat Ivan Drago in a real fight.
But the good guys always win, and Drago is a Russian and therefore by definition evil. Therefore, you cannot be correct.
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 11, 2013, 01:18:56 PM
You realize that's just a movie, right? Rocky would never beat Ivan Drago in a real fight.
But the good guys always win, and Drago is a Russian and therefore by definition evil. Therefore, you cannot be correct.
You are naive, like all Americans.
Hot pants.
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 11, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Eisenhower?
<------
He got caught on tape :contract:
Caught on tape being a hero.
He decommissioned the New Jersey (BB-62), I thought you would hate the guy.
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 11, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Eisenhower?
<------
He got caught on tape :contract:
Caught on tape being a hero.
He decommissioned the New Jersey (BB-62), I thought you would hate the guy.
But he kept it in reserve for when it would be needed again. A wise policy.
My true hatred is for Attlee and his clique, who scrapped all those lovely old dreadnoughts after the war.
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 11, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Eisenhower?
<------
He got caught on tape :contract:
Caught on tape being a hero.
He decommissioned the New Jersey (BB-62), I thought you would hate the guy.
But he kept it in reserve for when it would be needed again. A wise policy.
My true hatred is for Attlee and his clique, who scrapped all those lovely old dreadnoughts after the war.
Neil is a complicated man.
But no one understands him but his woman.
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 11, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 11, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
So, who is on the list of unflawed Cold War heroes?
Eisenhower?
<------
He got caught on tape :contract:
Caught on tape being a hero.
He decommissioned the New Jersey (BB-62), I thought you would hate the guy.
But he kept it in reserve for when it would be needed again. A wise policy.
My true hatred is for Attlee and his clique, who scrapped all those lovely old dreadnoughts after the war.
Neil is a complicated man.
But no one understands him but his woman.
hopefully his wife doesn't find out.
Neil doesn't stick his neck out for anyone.
Quote from: HVC on April 11, 2013, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
Neil is a complicated man.
But no one understands him but his woman.
hopefully his wife doesn't find out.
Seriously even I got that reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pFlsufZj9Fg#t=200s
and I'm usually completely blinkered
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 11, 2013, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
Neil is a complicated man.
But no one understands him but his woman.
hopefully his wife doesn't find out.
Seriously even I got that reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pFlsufZj9Fg#t=200s
and I'm usually completely blinkered
lol i knew it was shaft. Fresh Prince of Belair kept me in touch with the black youth of my generation :P
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 11, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 10:07:06 AM
I did. He stands above all others, being a wonderful human being.
A Vichyste? :yuk:
I :wub: 'ed a bit for DeGaulle when I heard his dismissal of Mitterand. "You again?"
:lol: :yes: :frog:
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2013, 03:10:29 PM
He decommissioned the New Jersey (BB-62), I thought you would hate the guy.
But he kept it in reserve for when it would be needed again. A wise policy.
Congress did that, not him.
Lay out their policies on gays, and only then I can decide.
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
My true hatred is for Attlee and his clique, who scrapped all those lovely old dreadnoughts after the war.
:huh:
Other than Warspite (which should have been preserved for the nation) the ships Attlee scrapped were too far gone even for a Reserve Fleet - I'd have thought you'd have saved your hatred for MacMillan's government that scrapped the surviving KGVs and finally the Vanguard (the effective British equivalent of the Iowas.)
-------
As for the poll I freely admit that sentimental reasons led me to vote for Thatcher. Reagan would have been the more objective vote due to his greater influence on the period.
Is there no love for Walesa at all on these forums, though?
Quote from: Agelastus on April 11, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
Is there no love for Walesa at all on these forums, though?
Sure, if there was a poll on favorite labor union leader he'd probably win hands down. Err, I guess not. Reagan was also a union boss. :lol:
Walesa, Havel and JP. Of these I think Walesa's the only one who's really flawed.
But I voted JP :wub:
Edit: And I'm amazed there's so few votes for Kohl :o
Quote from: Agelastus on April 11, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
My true hatred is for Attlee and his clique, who scrapped all those lovely old dreadnoughts after the war.
:huh:
Other than Warspite (which should have been preserved for the nation) the ships Attlee scrapped were too far gone even for a Reserve Fleet - I'd have thought you'd have saved your hatred for MacMillan's government that scrapped the surviving KGVs and finally the Vanguard (the effective British equivalent of the Iowas.)
They belonged in a museum. At least Warspite, Renown and probably Rodney did. I disapprove of the scrapping of the KGVs and especially Vanguard, but by that point it was tough times in Britain.
Quote
Is there no love for Walesa at all on these forums, though?
He's Polish, and is thus tainted by association.
I like the polack with the dark glasses. The one who should have shot Lech.
I like Lech.
Need to get a button made for that.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:24:09 PM
I like the polack with the dark glasses. The one who should have shot Lech.
His future was so bright that he had to wear shades?
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:24:09 PM
I like the polack with the dark glasses. The one who should have shot Lech.
His future was so bright that he had to wear shades?
I can't spell those names they got. LOL Dawid.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:24:09 PM
I like the polack with the dark glasses. The one who should have shot Lech.
His future was so bright that he had to wear shades?
I can't spell those names they got. LOL Dawid.
I'm sure it ended with -ski.
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on April 11, 2013, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 11, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
I didn't vote for JPII because I can't really see how he is "flawed" so I didn't see him as an appropriate choice for the poll. :sleep:
I voted for Gorby, because a) he is cool, and b) he's flawed what with that giant birthmark on his head. :smarty:
For Marti, "flawed" means "was not a champion of gay rights".
No, it means "feted serial child molesters and protected them from criminal prosecution". Also, "gagged theologians" and "spearheaded a mis-information campaign on condom use in Africa, which indirectly led to death of millions."
...none of which you'd care about in the least if he had been a huge supporter of gay rights.
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Gorby is overrated.
He's definitely a rather unpleasant fellow, and much more of an unrepentant authoritarian communist than you would think.
Quote from: fahdiz on April 11, 2013, 07:35:37 PM
...none of which you'd care about in the least if he had been a huge supporter of gay rights.
I mean for a start, what's the point of a Magisterium if they can't gag theologians? :blink:
I would point out Benny had a much better record on all of that as Pope and as Ratzinger (with the exception of gagging theologians, but that was his job :lol:). But I don't think it made Marty like him more.
Plus he has that splotch on his head.
I admire Gorby, but he seems to me a bit like a Khruschev they didn't overthrow quick enough. It's far less admirable than most of the others on the poll.
Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2013, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Gorby is overrated.
He's definitely a rather unpleasant fellow, and much more of an unrepentant authoritarian communist than you would think.
Well, he is a Russian. I see him as an inept reformer, like a guy who tries to replace all the supporting beams of his house at once.
The only one on the list I see as truly flawed is Cwptyn Solidarnosc. Of unflawed Cold War heroes I throw another vote at Havel.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2013, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Gorby is overrated.
He's definitely a rather unpleasant fellow, and much more of an unrepentant authoritarian communist than you would think.
Well, he is a Russian. I see him as an inept reformer, like a guy who tries to replace all the supporting beams of his house at once.
:yes: He's a failed communist, not a successful democrat.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 08:28:20 PM
I see him as an inept reformer, like a guy who tries to replace all the supporting beams of his house at once.
Out of all the ones listed in the poll, he was the one that was swimming upstream the most. Worked with what he had, within the environment he was given.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2013, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Gorby is overrated.
He's definitely a rather unpleasant fellow, and much more of an unrepentant authoritarian communist than you would think.
Well, he is a Russian. I see him as an inept reformer, like a guy who tries to replace all the supporting beams of his house at once.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T_XXh1WaG0
Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2013, 08:39:53 PM
:yes: He's a failed communist, not a successful democrat.
That was always my impression. Which is why it bothered me when people here got all mushy on him in the 80s.
The Naked Gun movie intro confirmed my fears :P
Quote from: derspiess on April 11, 2013, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 11, 2013, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2013, 07:24:09 PM
I like the polack with the dark glasses. The one who should have shot Lech.
His future was so bright that he had to wear shades?
I can't spell those names they got. LOL Dawid.
I'm sure it ended with -ski.
Jaruzelski, IIRC.
Lol