Caliga will be pleased.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/opinion/sunday/in-italy-illusion-is-the-only-reality.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
QuoteIn Italy, Illusion Is the Only Reality
OPINION
By TIM PARKS
Published: February 23, 2013
IT takes a certain talent to live in happy denial, to slide toward the edge of a precipice and be perfectly relaxed about it. Of all the talents that Italians are renowned for, such nonchalance is perhaps their greatest. Their economy is in deep recession; more than one in three young adults are unemployed; they are unable to compete economically with their neighbors; yet they continue as if nothing were happening, or as if a small glitch in the dolce vita could be fixed with the wave of a wand.
In particular, whether in awe or horror, they continue to be enchanted by the pied piper Silvio Berlusconi, the former and perhaps future prime minister and fabulously wealthy media magnate. In the run-up to the elections that begin today, he has promised to abolish the stiff property tax that was introduced by the previous government and is largely responsible for bringing a little credibility back to the country's finances (and that he voted for himself when it was introduced). Not only would he abolish it, but he would actually pay back what Italians paid on it last year.
The announcement, despite coming from a man who has repeatedly failed to turn even the most promising political and economic circumstances into anything resembling the collective good, earned Mr. Berlusconi a considerable leap in the polls.
I have lived in Italy for 32 years. One of the first things that struck me was the relation between action and consequence, which is different in the other countries I knew, Britain and the United States. Here someone is found to have abused their position of public office — given jobs to relatives, accepted bribes, spent public money on personal pleasures — but does not resign, does not think of resigning, attacks the moralists and sails on regardless.
Statistics show that tax evasion is endemic, and the more so the more one moves south, to the point that around Naples, dentists declare lower incomes than policemen. Needless to say, the fiscal shortfall has to be made up with government borrowing and higher taxes for those who do pay.
Meanwhile, though sports is glaringly corrupt, fans are as passionate as ever. As the owner of the big soccer club A. C. Milan, Mr. Berlusconi decided, at the beginning of his campaign, to buy the star striker Mario Balotelli. Again he was rewarded in the opinion polls.
The constant discrepancy between how one might expect things to pan out and how they actually do is nothing new. On a tour through Italy in 1869, Mark Twain wrote, "I can not understand how a bankrupt Government can have such palatial railroad depots."
Things don't change. Italy recently completed Europe's fastest train service; one can travel the 360 miles from Milan to Rome nonstop in just 2 hours and 45 minutes. In a country with a huge debt, this wonderful engineering feat has cost an astonishing 150 billion euros (about $200 billion).
Nobody seems sure where the investment came from or how the project will be paid for. One thing is certain: much of the money that legally should have been allotted to local services must have found its way to the high-speed project; to accommodate the few going fast, hosts of working people grind to the office in dirty, overcrowded trains. But what matters is the gleaming image of progress that the service projects.
Benito Mussolini, perhaps the first great propagandist of the modern era, understood perfectly this aspect of Italian psychology. "It is faith which moves mountains because it gives the illusion that mountains move," he said. "Illusion is perhaps the only reality in life."
On Jan. 27, at a ceremony for the national Holocaust remembrance day, Mr. Berlusconi felt it was the right time to say that Mussolini had actually done many good things and was not such a bad guy. He was rewarded with another upward twitch in the opinion polls.
It is the constant impression of people outside Italy that Mr. Berlusconi is some kind of evil buffoon and that the vast majority of Italians repudiate him. They cannot understand how a man so constantly on trial for all kinds of corruption, a man with a huge conflict of interest (he owns three national TV channels and large chunks of the country's publishing industry), remains at the center of power.
The answer, aside from the extraordinarily slow and complex judiciary and a distressing lack of truly independent journalism, is that Mr. Berlusconi's political instincts mesh perfectly with the collective determination not to face the truth, which again combines with deep fear that a more serious leader might ask too much of them. One of the things he has promised is a pardon for tax evaders. Only in a country where tax evasion is endemic can one appeal to evaders at the expense of those who actually pay taxes.
The mirror image of Mr. Berlusconi might be the caretaker prime minister Mario Monti, an unelected professor of economics, who took over in late 2011, in the middle of the euro crisis. Foreign observers are convinced Mr. Monti did a great job and deserves re-election; this is naïve. As many Italians see it (and I agree), the professor merely bowed to pressure from Berlin, cut spending where there was least resistance and taxed everybody without regard to income. His election campaign, based on a rhetoric of dour seriousness, has been disappointing. As a colleague remarked, if one is to be fleeced by the government anyway, better the entertainer than the pedant.
One entertainer seeking to capitalize on the situation is Beppe Grillo, a rowdy ex-comedian-turned-political blogger whose Five Star Movement proposes to sweep away the corrupt political order and promises a utopia of salaries for the unemployed and a 30-hour workweek. Mr. Grillo's style is so demagogical and his party so dependent on his inflammatory charisma that the 20 percent of the electorate supposedly planning to vote for him must surely have decided that it simply does not matter if the country is ungovernable after the elections.
Alternately, it may be that people feel that nothing can be done anyway, so great is the power exercised over Italy by the European Union; hence it is largely unimportant whom they vote for. Perhaps it is the effect of centuries of Catholic paternalism and reckless electoral promises, but nobody seems to envision a practical series of reforms to get from where we are now to where we might want to be; in its place there are prayers and fiscal fantasies.
Mussolini later corrected his comments on illusion. "It is impossible to ignore reality," he said, "however sad." One wonders, as this election approaches, how near Italy is to the moment when denial is no longer possible. I imagine Mr. Berlusconi re-elected and the stock market crashing, the country's international credibility melting away so that he must be removed in a matter of days. But then perhaps Italy's woes will be attributed to the perversities of international finance.
What is never countenanced is the notion that one has made very serious mistakes, or that one might really have to adjust to a reality where economic initiative has shifted decisively to the East, and investment capital with it. Almost every political program in Italy expresses a desire to return to the past, rather than understand the country's place in a changed world.
I did love that Italy facing an unstable government was breaking news :lol:
:)
Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.
The results are officially in, and they are simply incredible.
The two coalitions of right and left are tied around 30%, with a difference of 0.5%; given that Berlusconi started a couple months ago with a disadvantage of about -15%, it is a real debacle for the left.
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation lead by a (former?) stand-up comedian, reached almost 25%, and NON ONE knows what these guys will do, mainly because no one of them is a politician; their war cry for the whole campaign has been "Everybody GO HOME"
Monti, who tried his luck with an Europe-driven party, barely got a 10%, and probably is out of the game.
Everyone else is left out of parliament.
The first reaction has been: stock exchange panicked and is down -4% this morning; the BTP-Bund spread jumped through the ceiling;
there's no clear majority, either in the Chamber or in the Senate, and one of the possible outcomes is that there will be new elections in six months time.
Right now I'm evaluating two possibilities: either I will grab some popcorn and enjoy the panic, or I will pack up and leave the place indefinitely.
Every time I think that this country has touched the bottom, but it seems we're more than able to dig deeper and deeper.
L.
Europe is going down the drains. I'll start spamming my CV around overseas.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
their war cry for the whole campaign has been "Everybody GO HOME"
Sounds like a nativist party.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation
What do they prefer?
Meester Berlusconi :cool:
http://youtu.be/81vQje8bWmo (http://youtu.be/81vQje8bWmo)
It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforlovenotmoney.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2FScreen-shot-2011-02-20-at-16.34.01.png&hash=50190dbe919b64683fef40dac02ae61cdeae5205)
I'd vote for him. The world needs more bunga bunga parties.
Quote from: Gups on February 26, 2013, 07:55:56 AM
It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.
Well, he got thrown that Milano souvenir after all...
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 07:45:04 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation
What do they prefer?
None of the above.
Election in 6 months, the protest votes for the comedian goes instead to the other funny guy and Berlusconi is once again PM. Flee while you can, P. :P
Quote from: Gups on February 26, 2013, 07:55:56 AM
It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.
Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 26, 2013, 08:13:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on February 26, 2013, 07:55:56 AM
It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.
Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.
Doesn't Italy have the Internet?
Quote from: Liep on February 26, 2013, 08:19:03 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 26, 2013, 08:13:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on February 26, 2013, 07:55:56 AM
It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.
Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.
Doesn't Italy have the Internet?
That's where the MCS got its headstart and most of its promotion tools. Not the best endorsement.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 26, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 07:45:04 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation
What do they prefer?
None of the above.
Unless they're anarchists they have to prefer something, a presidential system, fascism, communism, etc.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 08:20:34 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 26, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 07:45:04 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation
What do they prefer?
None of the above.
Unless they're anarchists they have to prefer something, a presidential system, fascism, communism, etc.
It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 07:45:04 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation
What do they prefer?
More direct democracy. They campaigned a lot against the cronyism, corruption, longevity of the political caste. They're all non-politicians and have said they'll only serve for two full terms at which point they want to stand down and be replaced, I think they want that in the law too.
All of my Italian friend either voted for them, or would've voted for them if they were registered in the UK. Chances are, given the choices, I would've too.
QuoteSounds like a nativist party.
According to polls they're significantly more pro-immigration than the Italian average.
Heh. I am starting to think if Benito Mussolini had somehow survived the war he might have had a political comeback as well. Ah Italy.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:23:50 AMAccording to polls they're significantly more pro-immigration than the Italian average.
For what I've read they also want to put more hurdles to children of inmigrants getting the Italian nationality, and Grillo has ranted against Romanian gypsies in the past. I don't think they're a coherent movement, they seem to want to be everything for everybody, and at some point their contradictions will bite them in the ass.
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 08:22:21 AM
It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.
Given the state of Italy I think a tantrum's a reasonable response. The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running), Berlusconi again or a Bersani government that would try to reach the heights of Prodi.
Maybe it would've been different if Matteo Renzi had won the primary.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 08:22:21 AM
It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.
Given the state of Italy I think a tantrum's a reasonable response. The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running), Berlusconi again or a Bersani government that would try to reach the heights of Prodi.
Maybe it would've been different if Matteo Renzi had won the primary.
Absolutely, the state of politics there is completely disheartening, but IMO the MCS and its apparently unpragmatic attitude only exacerbates that, it doesn't contribute to an eventual solution. I hope to be proved wrong, though.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)
The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 08:26:29 AM
For what I've read they also want to put more hurdles to children of inmigrants getting the Italian nationality, and Grillo has ranted against Romanian gypsies in the past. I don't think they're a coherent movement, they seem to want to be everything for everybody, and at some point their contradictions will bite them in the ass.
They're probably not a coherent movement beyond wanting to tear down the current system - but I think that's fair enough. But they won the 18-24 vote (which doesn't get a vote in the Senate) and generally their support has polled as centre-left so their views on immigration are twice as positive than Italians in general (I think around 55% support immigration compared to around 30% in general).
I don't think you can blame them for their success. Blame the rest of Italian parties for getting to the point where 'throw the bastards out' is enough of a party manifesto, and justifiably so.
Quote from: Valmy on February 26, 2013, 08:29:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)
The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?
The kind of people who would be potential Monti voters don't seem to be as forgiving as the potential Berlusconi ones. And I bet that they're a much smoller pool anyway.
Quote from: Valmy on February 26, 2013, 08:29:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)
The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?
The attraction of Monti - who's still my favourite world leader, for now - was that he stood outside politics. Since he's run his message seems to have been one of fear, or transmitting foreign messages - I think Merkel disowned some comments he attributed to him. He now looks like any other politician, before he had a more severe reputation.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:33:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 26, 2013, 08:29:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 26, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)
The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?
The attraction of Monti - who's still my favourite world leader, for now - was that he stood outside politics. Since he's run his message seems to have been one of fear, or transmitting foreign messages - I think Merkel disowned some comments he attributed to him. He now looks like any other politician, before he had a more severe reputation.
There have been a few black spots on Monti's campaign AFAIK:
- First, there's the promise of not running and then running, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
- Then there was the fact that his demeanour isn't exactly charming. An austere professor which predicts doom and gloom if he's not picked is far from an attractive candidate. His attempts to be folksy or to endear himself with voters were also quite clumsy and artificial.
- For what I read he acted more as a lash against Bersani, claiming that much of his reforms would be watered down or go to waste if he got sole power, AFAIK in order to get some leverage in a potential alliance with him afterwards. This left Berlusconi to run unopposed on the right.
- His backers (Italian intelligentsia, big business, Merkel and so on) didn't have much of a pull amongst Italian voters, and could even be used as a weapon against him.
- Finally, in something that he did in common with Grillo, he wanted to have his cake and eat it, by being the centerpiece of his campaign but not contending for the election himself, retaining his senator for life spot.
He seemed to be a lock-in for the Italian Presidency, which must be decided in the spring, and with this dissapointing performance he might have ruined his chances for that.
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 08:40:38 AM
- Then there was the fact that his demeanour isn't exactly charming. An austere professor which predicts doom and gloom if he's not picked is far from an attractive candidate. His attempts to be folksy or to endear himself with voters were also quite clumsy and artificial.
Well...to be fair...
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 08:40:38 AM
He seemed to be a lock-in for the Italian Presidency, which must be decided in the spring, and with this dissapointing performance he might have ruined his chances for that.
There was lots of rumours that he might succeed Van Rompuy too. That's probably not plausible when he can't win 10% in his own country.
The average italian's feelings about Monti: a guy who was put in place by the financial/old money powers, to get out as quickly as possible of a stock market/sovereign debt crisis. His "Technical" government, held hostage by both the left and right, did not have the numbers to pass acts of real, undisputed urgency like a real, radical reformation of job market and pensions, of education and health care.
The infamous "BCE letter" sent to the italian government during the last fits of Berlusconi (summer 2011), which listed a vast program of serious reforms and which ultimately led to the fall of Berlusconi and the Monti premiership, has been largely unattended.
Grillo and the 5 Stars, well, they can be anti-system, anti-politics, etc., but they're still around the 25% mark, and cannot be simply put aside and forgotten.
The left turns out the real loser of these elections: they should've easily won, up until few days before the elections the polls gave the left a 10% advantage; maybe with Renzi as candidate premier they would've lost less votes to purely protest formations (M5S), but in the end they appeared as an old party that wanted to preserve the old PD Nomenklatura (Bersani head start, then Bindi, D'Alema, and many others).
Berlusconi, well, it's Berlusconi: old, yes, corrupt, probably, media tycoon, certainly (even if, in the last 20 years, despite having three TV channels, he lost two elections); but he represents a very large part of italians who don't want to vote the left, and are lacking an alternative.
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch)
I had no idea Shelf spoke Italian! :o
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 26, 2013, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch)
I had no idea Shelf spoke Italian! :o
I don't I'm afraid. I've rubbish language skills. I can read Spanish, but my communication's not so great.
I got curious as to what Sheilbh meant, so I googled. All I got though was Languish results for you. :P Is it gaelic?
Quote from: Liep on February 26, 2013, 10:13:10 AM
I got curious as to what Sheilbh meant, so I googled. All I got though was Languish results for you. :P Is it gaelic?
Yep. I think it means head of cattle. Not what I thought it meant when I first liked it though :lol:
What's the word again? Looked back & couldn't find it.
Not to go too off-topic but similar potest voting looks set to see a UKIP MP voted in for the first time, Michael Crick is almost calling the Eastleigh by-election:
QuoteMichael Crick @MichaelLCrick 33m
From talking to more voters today I increasingly think UKIP could pull of a surprise victory in Eastleigh. They will certainly do very well·
QuoteMichael Crick @MichaelLCrick 1h
A senior Lib Dem reckons that with another week UKIP might easily win this by-election. Just as well then that the party called it early
The 5-star crowd are offering something I would want, which is out of the euro and getting the Lira back :cool:
10% annual devaluation....................Italy would soon be back on her feet.
The trouble with the Italians is that while they make excellent Italians they are only 3rd-rate at behaving like Germans.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Interesting, thanks
Quote from: Neil on February 25, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.
Certainly not since the 4th century AD.
G.
Quote from: Maladict on February 26, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Interesting, thanks
Yep, I forgot you lived quite some time in Italy. ...and in my home town, too! :blush:
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Very interesting, thanks.
Quote from: Neil on February 25, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.
Tell that to the Carthaginians!
Quote from: Grallon on February 26, 2013, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 25, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.
Certainly not since the 4th century AD.
I don't think Italy can really be considered a successor state of the Roman Empire.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AMBerlusconi, well, it's Berlusconi: old, yes, corrupt, probably, media tycoon, certainly (even if, in the last 20 years, despite having three TV channels, he lost two elections); but he represents a very large part of italians who don't want to vote the left, and are lacking an alternative.
Really, man? :lol:
QuoteBy the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Thanks, interesting article. It raises some points on Berlusconi that are usually missing from analysis on him done by foreign journos, namely that despite all his buffoonery, he really knows what the average Italian wants to hear about and what are their day to day issues. Over here the only tangible policy that was mentioned and discussed was his proposal to abolish IMU and pay it back, but only to label it as nakedly populistic and technically impossible. At no point was it mentioned how that tax was affecting the average Italian household.
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AMBerlusconi, well, it's Berlusconi: old, yes, corrupt, probably, media tycoon, certainly (even if, in the last 20 years, despite having three TV channels, he lost two elections); but he represents a very large part of italians who don't want to vote the left, and are lacking an alternative.
Really, man? :lol:
;) :P
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
Grillo and the 5 Stars, well, they can be anti-system, anti-politics, etc., but they're still around the 25% mark, and cannot be simply put aside and forgotten.
you'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore 25% of the electorate. Or 33%, or depending on how things go next year here: 40%
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 26, 2013, 04:24:06 PM
you'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore 25% of the electorate. Or 33%, or depending on how things go next year here: 40%
Lettowists should always have their aims frustrated at any cost.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 26, 2013, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AMBerlusconi, well, it's Berlusconi: old, yes, corrupt, probably, media tycoon, certainly (even if, in the last 20 years, despite having three TV channels, he lost two elections); but he represents a very large part of italians who don't want to vote the left, and are lacking an alternative.
Really, man? :lol:
;) :P
L.
Corrupt?
I always thought he was in waste management :hmm:
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 09:10:29 AM
By the way, for the italian speakers here (Sheilbh, Larch), there's an excellent article about the italian right and Berlusconi on the Corriere homepage, by PL Battista:
http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/speciali/2013/elezioni/notizie/26-febbraio-riscossa-del-giaguaro-battista_3b297940-7fdd-11e2-b0f8-b0cda815bb62.shtml)
L.
Very interesting, thanks.
Great documentary on Italy on BBC4 right now.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 27, 2013, 03:56:49 AM
Quote from: Maladict on February 26, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
Interesting, thanks
Quote from: Winkelried on February 26, 2013, 12:37:59 PM
Very interesting, thanks.
Quote from: Tamas on February 26, 2013, 05:21:46 PM
Very interesting, thanks.
:hmm: I'm suspecting it's a polite way to say "I don't give a flying fuck" :lol:
L.
That's nice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JddNDtC-Yrs)
Quote from: Pedrito on February 27, 2013, 03:56:49 AM
:hmm: I'm suspecting it's a polite way to say "I don't give a flying fuck" :lol:
L.
I took it as a "Hey, look at me, I know italian, too!" :P
Quote from: Pedrito on February 27, 2013, 03:56:49 AM
Quote from: Maladict on February 26, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
Interesting, thanks
Quote from: Winkelried on February 26, 2013, 12:37:59 PM
Very interesting, thanks.
Quote from: Tamas on February 26, 2013, 05:21:46 PM
Very interesting, thanks.
:hmm: I'm suspecting it's a polite way to say "I don't give a flying fuck" :lol:
L.
I felt a bandwagon setting off and wanted in on the ride :D
Survey: what will happen with Italy?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.titanic-magazin.de%2Ffileadmin%2Fcontent%2FNewsticker%2FWie-geht-es-weiter-mit-Italien-v2.jpg&hash=30821054a49be306daa8c73ea36d249268c622ef)
Courtesy of a satirical website.
Quote from: Syt on February 27, 2013, 05:00:18 AM
Survey: what will happen with Italy?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.titanic-magazin.de%2Ffileadmin%2Fcontent%2FNewsticker%2FWie-geht-es-weiter-mit-Italien-v2.jpg&hash=30821054a49be306daa8c73ea36d249268c622ef)
Courtesy of a satirical website.
I AM THE 21%
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on February 26, 2013, 12:22:25 PM
Yep, I forgot you lived quite some time in Italy. ...and in my home town, too! :blush:
L.
Yeah, mine was meant as encouragement to post interesting non-English articles. <_<
I want a gelato.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 27, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
I want a gelato.
I could go for one, too. I OD'ed in Argentina, but I guess I've recovered by now.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 27, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
I want a gelato.
Princesca and I found a New York-style pizzeria like 10 minutes from our house this past weekend that has gelato. It was pretty good (she got some and I tasted it). I got one of their cannolis which was ok, but not 'correct' in that it had some weird chocolate filling.... never seen that before. Cannolis should have that ricotta cream stuff in them, and then possibly fillings included in that stuff... so a 'chocolate' cannoli should have chocolate chips in that cream filling, not have a chocolate cream filling. I'm thinking about filing a lawsuit. :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on February 27, 2013, 02:56:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 27, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
I want a gelato.
Princesca and I found a New York-style pizzeria like 10 minutes from our house this past weekend that has gelato. It was pretty good (she got some and I tasted it). I got one of their cannolis which was ok, but not 'correct' in that it had some weird chocolate filling.... never seen that before. Cannolis should have that ricotta cream stuff in them, and then possibly fillings included in that stuff... so a 'chocolate' cannoli should have chocolate chips in that cream filling, not have a chocolate cream filling. I'm thinking about filing a lawsuit. :hmm:
Calm down Spaz.
You should have said "Cal: Relax."
I gotta be different.
I always found cannolis to be pretty nasty.
Be glad there wasn't any gun powder residue.
Everything that Derspeiss eats has gunpowder residue on it for some reason.
Take the gun, leave the cannolis.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 27, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
I want a gelato.
Now I wish I was in Philly tonight; I could go for some Capo Giro. :(
http://www.independent.ie/videos/explicit-content-topless-feminists-target-silvio-berlusconi-in-italy-29092301.html
NSFW
Silvio is such a pimp.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 28, 2013, 02:10:44 PM
http://www.independent.ie/videos/explicit-content-topless-feminists-target-silvio-berlusconi-in-italy-29092301.html
NSFW
Silvio is such a pimp.
My dick didn't get hard until they were all stuffed into the clown cop car.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 26, 2013, 10:46:11 AM
The 5-star crowd are offering something I would want, which is out of the euro and getting the Lira back :cool:
10% annual devaluation....................Italy would soon be back on her feet.
The trouble with the Italians is that while they make excellent Italians they are only 3rd-rate at behaving like Germans.
In fairness they don't even want that they just want a referendum on Euro membership. Given Italy's situation I think a lot of their policies look pretty admirable.
The weird thing about Italy is how successful it is despite its politicians and corruption. They've got some world-beating companies, a mittelstand to envy and are a nation of frugal savers. They're the Japanese of Europe and if their politics worked Lord knows how well they'd do.
Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.
Yes, one does wonder how well they would have done if their politics and corruption had been closer to NW European norms :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 07:57:59 AM
Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.
Yes, one does wonder how well they would have done if their politics and corruption had been closer to NW European norms :hmm:
Part of it was in the failed industrial mobilisation during the war, as we all know their wartime weapons production was a disaster, but an awful lot of investment went into new factories, machine tools etc.
So the Italians found themselves at the end of the war with new engineering facilities, whose machine tools had only lightly used, ready to produce all sorts of consumer goods.
Whereas the UK fought the war with a huge stock of old industrial infrastructure/tool, which were then worked to the bone and had to go on producing goods for export and military equipment for the cold war confrontation. I vaguely remember reading that a surprising amount of victorian industrial machinery was still being used at the start of WW2.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 07:57:59 AM
Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding.
wut
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fuser3303%2Fimageroot%2F2013%2F02%2F20130227_JPM1_0.jpg&hash=6afe0078d13c0d6bafd0f586ae0f70499fbe8440)
That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.
But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.
Yes, but it went beyond reconstruction and the regaining of the pre-war position. Some time in the early 70s Italy's GDP surpassed the UK's and a few years later that of France. Then the low growth period started and Italy's relative position declined.
I would rather put down some statistics than just make an assertion based on half-remembered books I read years ago, but find it difficult to locate relevant statistics on the internet :mad:
Quote from: Neil on February 25, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.
I would say they still had it around Diocletian, not sure afterwards.
They lost it when Constantine set up shop in Turkey.
I'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.
Edit: Here it is.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-27/centruy-french-and-italian-economic-decline
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 04, 2013, 12:45:20 PM
I'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.
Edit: Here it is.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-27/centruy-french-and-italian-economic-decline
I think you're misinterpreting the graph. It's growth rate, not level. So just after the war Italy achieved 60% growth over 7 years. Not too shabby.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 03, 2013, 05:16:32 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.
But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.
Yeah, I mean look at Haiti.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 07:57:59 AM
Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.
Yep. In Europe only West Germany beat Italy economically in the thirty glorious years.
QuoteYeah, I mean look at Haiti.
Ironically the only country with lower growth than Italy for the last decade.
QuoteI'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.
Italy's always been a political basketcase. But it's really only been since the Euro and Berlusconi that it was economically screwed too.
Edit: Incidentally, from a Euro-reformist think tank's blog, the Grillini MPs and Senators have finally met:
QuoteAnd who are you again? Grillo's MPs and Senators meet each other for the first time
163 MPs and Senators-elect from the Five Star Movement met in Rome yesterday and today. As an initial party meeting after a general election it was quite unusual: despite belonging to the same party, most of the elected representatives had never heard of each other before, let alone met. Beppe Grillo himself did not know many of them, and that's why he joined the meeting today - along with the Five-Star Movement's media guru Gianroberto Casaleggio. Remember, the Five Star Movement selected its candidates through an on-line survey, so no face-to-face contact involved.
This shows just how far away the Five-Star Movement is from being a traditional political party - by any standard. And there's some more stuff:
Large part of today's meeting was live-streamed and available to everyone online;
At the meeting, each of the 163 parliamentarians-elect was given the opportunity to introduce him/herself to the others, and explain what his/her background and areas of interest were;
The MPs and Senators-elect are all considered 'spokesmen' and 'spokeswomen' of the Five-Star Movement;
The 163 today chose their faction leaders in both houses of the Italian parliament by a simple show of hands. The faction leaders will only hold the post for three months, and are to be replaced after that.
Incidentally, the faction leader in the Italian Senate is Vito Crimi, a 40-year old (the minimum legal age to be elected as a Senator in Italy) judicial assistant from the Northern town of Brescia. The faction leader in the Chamber of Deputies, the lower house, is Roberta Lombardi. She is 39, holds a degree in Law and works for an interior furniture company.
Whatever one thinks of the Five-Star Movement, it was quite impressive to see so many Italian MPs in their thirties (or even twenties) in the same room. Finally some fresh air in Italian politics, some might say. We still don't know what the Five-Star Movement will do next. Grillo made a quick appearance at the very beginning of the meeting today, saying that the Movement will only vote for the laws which fit with its manifesto - but he said that several times before.
It remains to be seen how this enthusiastic but inexperienced lot will react when the new Italian parliament convenes - on 15 March, or a bit earlier - and talks on the formation of the next government enter their decisive stage. The time for post-election celebrations may already be over for the Grillini. The question is: will this innovative approach to party politics hold (think party discipline) when things get serious?
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2013, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 03, 2013, 05:16:32 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 03, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.
But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.
Yeah, I mean look at Haiti.
I realize you are trying to make a joke, but in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquakes Haiti has actually posted strong growth rates--a lot better than the US and Europe.
http://www.caribjournal.com/2012/06/18/haiti-led-caribbean-gdp-growth-last-year-will-again-in-2012-eclac/
(article titled: Haiti Led Caribbean GDP Growth Last Year, Will Again in 2012: ECLAC)
Why would we think that growth rates are at all important?
I had a pretty good growth rate from 0-17. Then inflation kicked in. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2013, 10:05:53 PM
I had a pretty good growth rate from 0-17. Then inflation kicked in. :(
:lol:
I was an early bloomer - I only made it to 14 before inflation kicked in.
Bersani today said Italy needed to leave the austerity cage. There was also a Mori poll that had M5S 0.5% behind the centre left. If there was an election they could well end up winning the Lower House.
It looks like if there's another election the parties that won 90% of the vote will be campaigning against austerity in one way or the other and the ones that won around 50-60% of the vote will be at least slightly Euro-sceptic.
:yeah:
Silvio has just been sentenced to one year in priso for revealing trial secrets in one of his newspapers. It'll be appealed, of course, but it's another notch on his account. Later this month two more sentences against him are due, the bigger one the Ruby Heartbreaker and bunga bunga parties one, which could make or break the remains of his political career.