In Italy, Illusion Is the Only Reality; Berlusconi On His Way Back To The Top

[Iormlund]

It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.

Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.

[Liep]

It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.

Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.

Doesn't Italy have the Internet?

[The Larch]

It's truly amazing to me that Berlusconi hasn't been lynched, let alone that a significant amount of voters actually want him to be their leader.

Not really. The guy has controlled Italian media for decades.

Doesn't Italy have the Internet?

That's where the MCS got its headstart and most of its promotion tools. Not the best endorsement.

[jimmy olsen]

The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation

What do they prefer?

None of the above.

Unless they're anarchists they have to prefer something, a presidential system, fascism, communism, etc.

[The Larch]

The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation

What do they prefer?

None of the above.

Unless they're anarchists they have to prefer something, a presidential system, fascism, communism, etc.

It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.

[Sheilbh]

The Five Stars Movement, an anti-politics, anti-parlamentarianism, anti-privileges formation

What do they prefer?

More direct democracy. They campaigned a lot against the cronyism, corruption, longevity of the political caste. They're all non-politicians and have said they'll only serve for two full terms at which point they want to stand down and be replaced, I think they want that in the law too.

All of my Italian friend either voted for them, or would've voted for them if they were registered in the UK. Chances are, given the choices, I would've too.

Sounds like a nativist party.

According to polls they're significantly more pro-immigration than the Italian average.

[Valmy]

Heh.  I am starting to think if Benito Mussolini had somehow survived the war he might have had a political comeback as well.  Ah Italy.

[The Larch]

According to polls they're significantly more pro-immigration than the Italian average.

For what I've read they also want to put more hurdles to children of inmigrants getting the Italian nationality, and Grillo has ranted against Romanian gypsies in the past. I don't think they're a coherent movement, they seem to want to be everything for everybody, and at some point their contradictions will bite them in the ass.

[Sheilbh]

It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.

Given the state of Italy I think a tantrum's a reasonable response. The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running), Berlusconi again or a Bersani government that would try to reach the heights of Prodi.

Maybe it would've been different if Matteo Renzi had won the primary.

[The Larch]

It's a tantrum party, don't look too deep into them.

Given the state of Italy I think a tantrum's a reasonable response. The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running), Berlusconi again or a Bersani government that would try to reach the heights of Prodi.

Maybe it would've been different if Matteo Renzi had won the primary.

Absolutely, the state of politics there is completely disheartening, but IMO the MCS and its apparently unpragmatic attitude only exacerbates that, it doesn't contribute to an eventual solution. I hope to be proved wrong, though.

[Valmy]

The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)

The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?

[Sheilbh]

For what I've read they also want to put more hurdles to children of inmigrants getting the Italian nationality, and Grillo has ranted against Romanian gypsies in the past. I don't think they're a coherent movement, they seem to want to be everything for everybody, and at some point their contradictions will bite them in the ass.

They're probably not a coherent movement beyond wanting to tear down the current system - but I think that's fair enough. But they won the 18-24 vote (which doesn't get a vote in the Senate) and generally their support has polled as centre-left so their views on immigration are twice as positive than Italians in general (I think around 55% support immigration compared to around 30% in general).

I don't think you can blame them for their success. Blame the rest of Italian parties for getting to the point where 'throw the bastards out' is enough of a party manifesto, and justifiably so.

[The Larch]

The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)

The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?

The kind of people who would be potential Monti voters don't seem to be as forgiving as the potential Berlusconi ones. And I bet that they're a much smoller pool anyway.

[Sheilbh]

The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)

The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?

The attraction of Monti - who's still my favourite world leader, for now - was that he stood outside politics. Since he's run his message seems to have been one of fear, or transmitting foreign messages - I think Merkel disowned some comments he attributed to him. He now looks like any other politician, before he had a more severe reputation.

[The Larch]

The options were Monti (who spoiled himself by running)

The Italians will forgive everything Berlusconi did, but running when you said you were not going to is unforgivable eh?

The attraction of Monti - who's still my favourite world leader, for now - was that he stood outside politics. Since he's run his message seems to have been one of fear, or transmitting foreign messages - I think Merkel disowned some comments he attributed to him. He now looks like any other politician, before he had a more severe reputation.

There have been a few black spots on Monti's campaign AFAIK:

- First, there's the promise of not running and then running, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
- Then there was the fact that his demeanour isn't exactly charming. An austere professor which predicts doom and gloom if he's not picked is far from an attractive candidate. His attempts to be folksy or to endear himself with voters were also quite clumsy and artificial.
- For what I read he acted more as a lash against Bersani, claiming that much of his reforms would be watered down or go to waste if he got sole power, AFAIK in order to get some leverage in a potential alliance with him afterwards. This left Berlusconi to run unopposed on the right.
- His backers (Italian intelligentsia, big business, Merkel and so on) didn't have much of a pull amongst Italian voters, and could even be used as a weapon against him.
- Finally, in something that he did in common with Grillo, he wanted to have his cake and eat it, by being the centerpiece of his campaign but not contending for the election himself, retaining his senator for life spot.

He seemed to be a lock-in for the Italian Presidency, which must be decided in the spring, and with this dissapointing performance he might have ruined his chances for that.