Wow, now that is some fascist level eugenics bullshit.
The title soft pedals the truth, the Israelis have admitted to it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/
QuoteIsrael Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control, Report Claims
This weekend, a report revealing that African women immigrating to Israel were subjected to mandatory contraceptive injections, effectively amounting to forced (if temporary) sterilization made global headlines.
Some 130,000 Ethiopians, most of them Jewish, live in Israel. The community experiences higher poverty and unemployment rates than the rest of the country's Jewish population. In the past decade, the birth rate among Ethiopian-Israelis has declined by at least 20 percent. Advocacy groups now claim this decline is the result of a birth control regimen forced upon Ethiopian immigrant women.
According to an article in Haaretz, an Israeli news source, one Ethiopian immigrant said that the doctors who injected her claimed that "people who frequently give birth suffer." While it is possible, if highly unlikely, that doctors genuinely had the women's health in mind when they forcibly injected them with contraceptives, there is no excuse for depriving women sovereignty over their own reproductive choices.
Israel has acknowledged the issue (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html) (without admitting any wrongdoing) and has vowed institutional changes in healthcare for immigrants. By decree of Israel's health minister, gynecologists have been ordered "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment." Still, intense scrutiny should be applied by women's groups and international organizations to make sure these changes are implemented in full. Moreover, more attention must be paid to the plight of vulnerable African immigrants around the world.
That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel's implicit intent to limit 'burdensome' (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments of World War II.
Immigration, legal and otherwise, is a difficult and invariably sticky issue for developed nations. Israel, like the United States, has struggled to find a way to secure its borders and its population while dealing with a constant stream of immigrants from neighboring countries and, increasingly, the African continent. While admitting the difficult security issues that Israel faces, the international community must loudly and unanimously rebuke the systematic violations of human rights inflicted on women immigrants of African origin.
From a sociological perspective, this incident shows the strain between Israel's religious heritage and its modern political agenda. "Behold, the heritage of the Lord is sons, the reward is the fruit of the innards. Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man, so are the sons of one's youth. Praiseworthy is the man who has filled his quiver with them," the Torah proclaims. The involuntary sterilization of African immigrants suggests that the Jewish moral code (inextricably connected with Israel's domestic legal codes) can be selectively applied to those with 'desirable' backgrounds. It is hard, indeed almost impossible to believe that an American Jewish woman immigrating to Israel would be forced to take birth control.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 06:38:54 PM
Wow, now that is some fascist level eugenics bullshit.
Tim, you might want to reconsider you comments in the light of the recent shitstorm about a cartoon over here.
Plus you do know that you're posting on Languish right ? :unsure:
(hint; super jews can do no harm. :P )
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
What's the big deal? Seems like derspiess supports subsidized whore pills after all.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on January 30, 2013, 08:04:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
What's the big deal? Seems like derspiess supports subsidized whore pills after all.
The determining factor seems to be skin colour. :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:07:48 PM
The determining factor seems to be skin colour. :hmm:
:rolleyes:
He doesn't mind southern accents, believes in forced contraception of coloreds, afraid the gubmint is gonna steal his guns....sounds about right for Derspicy
My sperm can counteract Jew birth control.
Oh for...Israel is really going off the deepend. One would think Israel would be eager for more Jews of any color.
Israel is tiny, they don't really need more people.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2013, 09:30:08 PM
Israel is tiny, they don't really need more people.
They do to compete in the war of breeding with the Pals.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2013, 09:30:08 PM
Israel is tiny, they don't really need more people.
No shit. They already have Russians covering the fake Jew scam artist angle. The last thing they need is a bunch of fake scamster Jews bringing an even more barbaric non-white culture into Israel. Liberman and Siegebreaker are enough.
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 09:47:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2013, 09:30:08 PM
Israel is tiny, they don't really need more people.
They do to compete in the war of breeding with the Pals.
:huh:
Surely you must be joking.
Quote from: Neil on January 30, 2013, 09:56:37 PM
:huh:
Surely you must be joking.
Oh I wish I were. Lunacy just abounds in that area.
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
I'm a bit thrown off by this one as well.
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
Definitely, if he really believed stuff like this it would have come out before this.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
Definitely, if he really believed stuff like this it would have come out before this.
But it has.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
Definitely, if he really believed stuff like this it would have come out before this.
I wouldn't be confident that nothing of this sort didn't come out before. He's been giving off a fascist vibe for quite a while.
That is kinda common amongst right wingers.
Eugenics and fascism are two different things.
Fuck you people are embarassingly stupid.
Nobody said they were. :huh:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
Sounds horrible on first glance, but reading more into it I have less of a problem with it. It's a problem for Israel if these immigrants are popping out babies like pez dispensers. The alternative is shutting out Ethiopians altogether, and given a choice I'd bet the women would rather take the contraceptive than have that happen.
I wouldn't favor anything like that here, but Israel can do this if they want.
Am I getting trolled?
Definitely, if he really believed stuff like this it would have come out before this.
If I really believed what stuff?
You naughty man.
Spicey would order his wife to inject black jews with birth control.
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 11:23:05 PM
Spicey would order his wife to inject black jews with birth control.
Well it's not like she's going to want to make that decision herself, is it? I would drive her there, at least.
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
The Isreali health ministry ordered that giving these injections routinely should stop and only be given to those women who can understand the consequences of the injection.
everything else is speculation and rather wild speculation at that, racist government conspiracies to eugenically cleanse black ethiopian jews from israel are suggested and references to the Torah are given.
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
This does seem to be a violation of human rights.
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
The Isreali health ministry ordered that giving these injections routinely should stop and only be given to those women who can understand the consequences of the injection.
everything else is speculation and rather wild speculation at that, racist government conspiracies to eugenically cleanse black ethiopian jews from israel are suggested and references to the Torah are given.
Given the number of women believed to be involved, who else but the government could be responsible for it?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2013, 12:02:16 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
This does seem to be a violation of human rights.
apparently this is being objected to as well
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113429915
QuoteWhat the original television program uncovered is an insensitivity to a traditional culture and imposing Western norms in what likely began as a well-meaning attempt to help families make an easier adjustment to the shock that was ahead of them when they moved to Israel and once they arrived. The stories women told painted a picture of being coaxed and strongly convinced that they should subject themselves to a Depo-Provera birth control shot every three months, without being offered other methods of family planning. They also recounted being told in educational workshops that Israelis had "small families" and that having many children in Israel would "make their life difficult." Some said they were led to believe they would not be permitted to emigrate if they did not submit to the shots, others said that their objections to receiving them were ignored. Some women said they weren't aware the shots were birth control - they thought they were vaccinations, and others said their complaints about disturbing side effects were ignored.
The most hostile coverage refers inaccurately to "sterilization" - conveniently ignoring the fact that Depo-Provera is a three-month birth control injection, for which women must voluntarily go to a clinic to receive the shots. It is insulting to the intelligence of Ethiopian women to believe that they did this for years at a time against their will. Certainly, if there was a nefarious plot to stop them from having babies, there would have been a more efficient way to do it.
I believe the women who told their stories to Gal Gabbai. I also believe that the vast majority of the Ethiopian women who received Depo-Provera were aware it was birth control and received it willingly, wanting to be in control of deciding when to get pregnant. And some of them - it is unclear how many - preferred being injected at a clinic rather than having to take pills daily in the presence of other family members - husbands or mothers or in-laws - who might disapprove of that decision. I also believe that those who did not want to receive the shots and truly wanted to become pregnant were smart enough to stop receiving them. At least some of the drop in these birthrate is attributable to access to birth control and control over their childbearing that these women wanted.
What is likely true - and needs to be urgently corrected, is that those who do want to practice birth control understand that there are alternative methods that are safer with fewer side effects, and that no ethnic group, native or immigrant is ever systematically given Depo-Provera again.
here the claim is that the contraceptive was given secretly so the women had deniability so they would not be kept barefoot and pregnant by their husbands. (the haaretz blog this post is commenting on is behind a pay wall)
given that this is israel emotions run wild and reason doesn't prevail as the routine charges of genocide get thrown around.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2013, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
The Isreali health ministry ordered that giving these injections routinely should stop and only be given to those women who can understand the consequences of the injection.
everything else is speculation and rather wild speculation at that, racist government conspiracies to eugenically cleanse black ethiopian jews from israel are suggested and references to the Torah are given.
Given the number of women believed to be involved, who else but the government could be responsible for it?
Whatever the number is it isn't 100,000 (or 130,000) that is the total number of falasha's living in israel of which only a small percentage are fertile.
It is also limited by the fact that these injections were initiated at camps run by an NGO the "American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee" rather than the government and continued after settlement in israel where services were provided by the Israeli Health Care System (which was the one that both denied any involvment and then sent out the memo instructing doctors only to prescribe the drug to patients who understood the effects of the drug).
Real conspiracies don't work like that.
The second conspiracy does sound realistic; the one where the feminists secretly help the falashmura women get whore pills in secret so their men don't keep them barefoot and pregnant until menopause.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2013, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
The Isreali health ministry ordered that giving these injections routinely should stop and only be given to those women who can understand the consequences of the injection.
everything else is speculation and rather wild speculation at that, racist government conspiracies to eugenically cleanse black ethiopian jews from israel are suggested and references to the Torah are given.
Given the number of women believed to be involved, who else but the government could be responsible for it?
I would say the Jews, but I realize it gets tricky in this particular situation. :hmm:
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 11:23:05 PM
Spicey would order his wife to inject black jews with birth control.
It would be a hell of a lot funnier if his wife were injected by a black Jew instead.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 02:15:19 AM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 11:23:05 PM
Spicey would order his wife to inject black jews with birth control.
It would be a hell of a lot funnier if his wife were injected by a black Jew instead.
Black Jews are a hoax.
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 02:16:22 AMBlack Jews are a hoax.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fglobal3.memecdn.com%2FSammy-Davis-Jr-wants-you-gone_o_85223.jpg&hash=088b83be304b27fc239decbbdfa2138db5466386)
:lol:
:D
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_F9v5KPGAZx0%2FTNeOtgfn8bI%2FAAAAAAAAAGw%2FXT4yktMwofg%2Fs1600%2Fgay-black-kkk.jpg&hash=42518569eed50a97de6d4457f5c3db6091ca8434)
Quote from: Neil on January 30, 2013, 10:16:56 PM
Eugenics and fascism are two different things.
Fuck you people are embarassingly stupid.
Not when the eugenics are based on race.
Quote from: Gups on January 31, 2013, 09:40:04 AM
Not when the eugenics are based on race.
Eh the Nazis did eugenics primarily on the mentally ill and disabled right? They secretly would take out babies before the Catholics got ahold of it and protested? Granted it was not like they are any other races in Germany to do eugenics with besides a few Senegalese-German children.
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 02:16:22 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 02:15:19 AM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 11:23:05 PM
Spicey would order his wife to inject black jews with birth control.
It would be a hell of a lot funnier if his wife were injected by a black Jew instead.
Black Jews are a hoax.
Special Agent Alonzo Mosely says otherwise.
Is there no way for a state to legitimately stop (even temporarily) immigrants/people living on public assistance from having children that will have to be supported by the state?
Quote from: Kleves on January 31, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Is there no way for a state to legitimately stop (even temporarily) immigrants/people living on public assistance from having children that will have to be supported by the state?
Not anymore, apparently. Smartest thing at this point would be to just stop allowing Ethiopians in.
I guess there aren't any Black Jews in Poland.
Can't imagine how that could have happened.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 31, 2013, 10:16:10 AM
I guess there aren't any Black Jews in Poland.
Can't imagine how that could have happened.
Forced conversion? :unsure:
Quote from: Kleves on January 31, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Is there no way for a state to legitimately stop (even temporarily) immigrants/people living on public assistance from having children that will have to be supported by the state?
No. They can stop immigration (though not on grounds of race and, for Israel, not of Jews). Or they can stop benefits. I think anything else is far too great an intervention into personal autonomy.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: Gups on January 31, 2013, 09:40:04 AM
Not when the eugenics are based on race.
Eh the Nazis did eugenics primarily on the mentally ill and disabled right? They secretly would take out babies before the Catholics got ahold of it and protested? Granted it was not like they are any other races in Germany to do eugenics with besides a few Senegalese-German children.
They killed a lot of Jewish babies as well.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 31, 2013, 10:29:37 AM
No. They can stop immigration (though not on grounds of race and, for Israel, not of Jews). Or they can stop benefits. I think anything else is far too great an intervention into personal autonomy.
This isn't being done on grounds of race in the first place. It's being done on the basis of national origin. And they can certainly do that. Re: the Jewish thing they should seriously consider amending that law. At this point it appears that too many fake Jews are getting in.
I gotta agree with Viking on this one: the Forbes article is a somewhat hysterical take on the facts.
Family planning for immigrants from impoverished and uneducated 3rd world countries is always going to be problematic, and it is certainly possible that the government was less than forthcomming about what it was providing - though little proof has been advanced for that. The article in the OP though is over-the-top, verging on the absurd in its allegations. Israeli practices are not directly inspired by the Torah. :lol:
Quote from: Gups on January 31, 2013, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: Gups on January 31, 2013, 09:40:04 AM
Not when the eugenics are based on race.
Eh the Nazis did eugenics primarily on the mentally ill and disabled right? They secretly would take out babies before the Catholics got ahold of it and protested? Granted it was not like they are any other races in Germany to do eugenics with besides a few Senegalese-German children.
They killed a lot of Jewish babies as well.
I think Valmy's post is what people think of when they are talking about nazi eugenics.
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 11:03:07 AM
I gotta agree with Viking on this one: the Forbes article is a somewhat hysterical take on the facts.
Family planning for immigrants from impoverished and uneducated 3rd world countries is always going to be problematic, and it is certainly possible that the government was less than forthcomming about what it was providing - though little proof has been advanced for that. The article in the OP though is over-the-top, verging on the absurd in its allegations. Israeli practices are not directly inspired by the Torah. :lol:
Still, if the allegations were true, it would be pretty outrageous, wouldn't it? Because some people in this thread are apparently arguing that it would be alright (although I am still unsure if derspiess is trolling or not).
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 11:04:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 11:03:07 AM
I gotta agree with Viking on this one: the Forbes article is a somewhat hysterical take on the facts.
Family planning for immigrants from impoverished and uneducated 3rd world countries is always going to be problematic, and it is certainly possible that the government was less than forthcomming about what it was providing - though little proof has been advanced for that. The article in the OP though is over-the-top, verging on the absurd in its allegations. Israeli practices are not directly inspired by the Torah. :lol:
Still, if the allegations were true, it would be pretty outrageous, wouldn't it? Because some people in this thread are apparently arguing that it would be alright (although I am still unsure if derspiess is trolling or not).
It certainly would be.
If the government of Israel was ordering doctors to administer birth control to Ethiopian women without their consent so as to reduce or eliminate the Ethiopian population, that would indeed be outrageous.
However, an actual review of the facts indicates that no-one (other than activists) is actually claiming this happened. What they are claiming is this: that some health care workers who were tasked with providing care to this community *allegedly* gave these women "injections" without the women knowing what they were. When the allegations surfaced, the Israeli government specifically ordered that no contraceptive injections be provided unless the women in question clearly knew what they were getting.
So far, I can't really fault the government - cue hysterical accusations of Jewish eeevil.
Considering that the women in question were allegedly given "injections" in transit camps (i.e., before even comming to Israel), chances are said women did not even have a language in common with the health-care workers. It is possible those workers were maliciously giving contraceptives because they did not want little Black babies running about. It is aslo possible that there was miscommunications at work here.
It is not likely that this was official Israeli policy, given that Israel went to considerable expense and effort to pay to have these Etheopian Jews shipped to Israel. If they did not want Black people about, they could have simply left them where they were to rot, and no-one would have given a shit.
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 11:04:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 11:03:07 AM
I gotta agree with Viking on this one: the Forbes article is a somewhat hysterical take on the facts.
Family planning for immigrants from impoverished and uneducated 3rd world countries is always going to be problematic, and it is certainly possible that the government was less than forthcomming about what it was providing - though little proof has been advanced for that. The article in the OP though is over-the-top, verging on the absurd in its allegations. Israeli practices are not directly inspired by the Torah. :lol:
Still, if the allegations were true, it would be pretty outrageous, wouldn't it? Because some people in this thread are apparently arguing that it would be alright (although I am still unsure if derspiess is trolling or not).
Still they are just unsupported allegations.
I liked how the electronic intifada manages to be outraged both over Israel paying to move black jews into Israel AND genociding them with birth control.
Giving long term contraceptives to women with husbands opposed to birth control or to women who are not capable of getting and taking the regular pill is common practice and usually controversial. The US had the big controversy with Norplant (which works for 3 years) and the suggestions that it was a hidden means of conducting genocide against black and minority women.
It also seems that giving depo is normal in africa
http://gantdaily.com/2012/02/17/who-clarifies-guidance-on-hormonal-contraception-and-hiv/
(note, this is discussing how women using depo are at a higher risk of getting hiv, though the correlation-causation issue isn't really brought up)
QuoteMore commonly known by the brand name, Depo-Provera, this drug is the backbone of most African family-planning programs.
this is probably due to the fact that A) the husband can't stop the woman from taking the shot or sabotage it and B) it is cheaper, more reliable and controlled by the clinic rather than the unreliable third world patient.
and finally a daily beast article about why depo is the best option for contraceptives in africa
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/06/study-linking-depo-provera-birth-control-to-hiv-infection-in-africa-has-faulty-data.html
QuoteThat's why injectable contraceptives like Depo-Provera are so important to the more than 6 million women in sub-Saharan Africa who use them as a crucial tool for pregnancy prevention. By simply getting a shot once every three months, women who live far from health-care facilities have a reliable way to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Also, for women who feel they cannot or do not want to let their male partners know they are on birth control, Depo-Provera is a discreet and appealing option.
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
Considering that the women in question were allegedly given "injections" in transit camps (i.e., before even comming to Israel), chances are said women did not even have a language in common with the health-care workers. It is possible those workers were maliciously giving contraceptives because they did not want little Black babies running about. It is aslo possible that there was miscommunications at work here.
It is not likely that this was official Israeli policy, given that Israel went to considerable expense and effort to pay to have these Etheopian Jews shipped to Israel. If they did not want Black people about, they could have simply left them where they were to rot, and no-one would have given a shit.
Wait so perhaps it is misleading to declare the Israel was using physical force to give black women birth control?
There's enough smoke here to justify a very serious inquiry into whether coercion was employed. There may be more innocent explanations but that is what inquiries are for.
Unfortunately one cannot expect this to be covered rationally in the press as the word Israel is the leading cause of acute knee spasms all over the world.
Still a little weird coming from Forbes.
FWIW, Ethiopa has the world's 12th highest TFR at 5.39.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 12:42:03 PM
Still a little weird coming from Forbes.
It's hard to know what to make of this.
The Forbes article appears to be sourced from an article in the UK Independent. The Independent story provides direct quotations from women claiming they were coerced and misled and cites investigative reports from an Isreali journalist. That seems pretty solid although I suppose one could contend that there was a "failure to communicate" or something like that.
The Independent article goes on to mention the hostility of the haredim towards the Ethiopian Jews, which is true (and disgraceful).
But it then goes onto quote Netanyahu as saying "'that illegal immigrants from Africa "threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state'" That is extremely misleading - Bibi was talking about non-Jewish illegal guest workers from North Africa, not the Ethiopian Jews who are none of those things. The use of that quotation to suggest Netanyahu views the Ethiopian Jews as a threat is at best really bad journalism and raises questions about editorial motivation.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 31, 2013, 10:16:10 AM
I guess there aren't any Black Jews in Poland.
Can't imagine how that could have happened.
They're there, all right. At the airport, boarding their connecting flights.
Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
The known facts
Ethopian Jewish women were without their knowledge or consent being given contraceptive injections.
We don't know anything of the sort. We know that some Ethiopian women are now claiming that they didn't know that they were getting birth control injections. We have no idea whether or not they are saying this because it is true, or because they didn't tell their husbands that they were getting birth control and now must deny that they ever knew it.
QuoteThe Isreali health ministry ordered that giving these injections routinely should stop and only be given to those women who can understand the consequences of the injection.
Correct, though this could be a new policy, or it can be a re-iteration of an existing policy. The Israeli government has a vested interest in having us believe the latter.
Quoteeverything else is speculation and rather wild speculation at that...
We also know that the Ethiopian-Israeli birth rate has declined by 20% in some time period. That isn't an unexpected outcome in societies where women have career alternatives to motherhood, but there are those who seek another explanation. Conspiracies are always good for news copy.
Given that conspiracy theories also provide the pinheads among us the opportunity to babble about Nazism and eugenics, and thus indirectly entertain the rest of us, I rather like conspiracy theories.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
Considering that the women in question were allegedly given "injections" in transit camps (i.e., before even comming to Israel), chances are said women did not even have a language in common with the health-care workers. It is possible those workers were maliciously giving contraceptives because they did not want little Black babies running about. It is aslo possible that there was miscommunications at work here.
It is not likely that this was official Israeli policy, given that Israel went to considerable expense and effort to pay to have these Etheopian Jews shipped to Israel. If they did not want Black people about, they could have simply left them where they were to rot, and no-one would have given a shit.
Wait so perhaps it is misleading to declare the Israel was using physical force to give black women birth control?
It is certainly misleading to declare that
Israel (i.e., the Israeli government) was making a policy of forcibly giving black women birth control.
There are allegations which may well be true (though given the bullshit context I'll reserve judgment) that Israeli healthcare workers gave etheopian women injections, presumed to be birth control, without their informed consent and indeed in some cases over their objections. This is based on an investigative journalist's interview with 30 women.
The article linked by Forbes (to the Independant) contains extremely misleading journalism that twists the Israeli goverment's order - that is, "don't give any injections of birth control without being absolutely sure of informed consent" - into an admission:
QuoteThe government had previously denied the practice but the Israeli Health Ministry's director-general has now ordered gynaecologists to stop administering the drugs. According a report in Haaretz, suspicions were first raised by an investigative journalist, Gal Gabbay, who interviewed more than 30 women from Ethiopia in an attempt to discover why birth rates in the community had fallen dramatically.
One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: "They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to." It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia.
...
Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told "not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment".
[emphasis added]
This is grade-A bullshit journalism. It is making several huge lazy assumptions: that a practice complained of by "some of" the 30 women he interviewed, allegedly a p[ractice occuring in "transit camps" is so widespread as to explain a fall in birthrates in the community
in Israel (the drug it is noted doesn't have a *permanent* effect and so presumably Israeli doctors are still regularly injecting women
in Israel to this day, according to this theory) and that the goverment responding with "please ensure your patients give informed consent" is an admission that they, the government, made a "practice" of encouraging or ordering such injections previously; that the Israeli leaders think Etheopian Jews are a threat (when of course Israel
paid to have them shipped to Israel).
QuoteNearly 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis. Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa "threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state".
Notice the neat conflation here? The link is the PM "who still holds the health portfolio". Of course as Minsky points out,
illegal immigrants from Africa are a very different thing from the Etheopian Jews here. The insinuation is a racist PM who hates "Africans" and is sneakily using his health ministry powers to prevent them from breeding.
All of which is of course fodder for the Timmays of this world who do not read critically to assume Israel is engaged, and I quote, in "some fascist level eugenics bullshit" and that "the Israelis have admitted to it".
The one smoking gun in the article, the unnamed woman's statement, also undercuts itself. She said she didn't want to take it after being told it was an innoculation. The indictment works much better if A) she was told it was birth control, said she didn't want to take it, then was forced or B) was told it was an innoculation, agreed, and didn't find out until later that it was birth control.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 31, 2013, 10:29:37 AM
No. They can stop immigration (though not on grounds of race and, for Israel, not of Jews). Or they can stop benefits. I think anything else is far too great an intervention into personal autonomy.
Neither of those solutions seems very workable - especially cutting off benefits. Is the state going to let the excess children starve, go without medical care, go without an education; is the state going to confiscate any excess children from the parents at birth? As far as stopping immigration goes, would you support a state being able to ban immigration from a particular country, or does the ban have to be total?
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
I believe they are.
Section 8 vouchers? I thought the Languish military population had used up all of those.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
:yes:
Anything on top of that D? Any kind of resettlement allowance? Housewarming gift from Uncle Sam? Welcome to America walking around money?
Quote from: Kleves on January 31, 2013, 03:59:29 PMNeither of those solutions seems very workable - especially cutting off benefits. Is the state going to let the excess children starve, go without medical care, go without an education; is the state going to confiscate any excess children from the parents at birth?
I didn't say they were workable but I think they're more ethical and more in accord with human rights than allowing the state to decide, in effect, who can and can't have children, or to make conception decisions for individuals.
I agree that it's not plausible. But a significant number of benefits are tied to previous work history - failing that you get the bare minimum - and of course it depends on the sort of state assistance and the wider perspective. For example what about child tax credits for a large immigrant family that is in work, compared a bunch of non-fecund moochers?
QuoteAs far as stopping immigration goes, would you support a state being able to ban immigration from a particular country, or does the ban have to be total?
I think it depends. If we're talking economic migration then I think the state's within its rights to set a limit and certain criteria and then apply that in a non-discriminatory way. But they can have special deals with specific countries I think (like the EU and new members before the labour market's fully open). On the other hand if we're talking refugees then I don't have a problem with the approach I think some Euro countries and Australia take of saying how many refugees they'll accept a year and then divvying that up based on need and number of applications - so lots more Zimbabweans one year, Afghans the next. I don't have any problem with a country deciding to reduce or stop immigration entirely, but I would personally oppose it and would wonder what could motivate such economic self-harm.
But Israel's in a different position. My understanding of the Law of Return, but all this could be very wrong, is that if you're Jewish enough, ethnically, to have fallen within the Nuremburg Laws then you have a right to go to Israel even if you're not considered 'religiously Jewish' or have converted. I believe that's behind much post-Soviet immigration. Again I think the Falasha are recognised as religiously Jewish by one of the Chief Rabbis. In my view that's right given Israel's role as a refuge for the Jewish people.
The whole issue of discouraging immigration in the case of Ethiopian Jews is a red herring. Israel deliberately imported these people to Israel, at considerable expense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_from_Ethiopia
Quote from: The Brain on January 31, 2013, 04:25:57 PM
Section 8 vouchers? I thought the Languish military population had used up all of those.
:)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
Anything on top of that D? Any kind of resettlement allowance? Housewarming gift from Uncle Sam? Welcome to America walking around money?
Nope, not Uncle Sam. For the first few months, though, we were supported by an organization called NYANA, which was a little more generous than welfare, and gave some stuff that was useful for people just off the boat.
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 04:56:13 PM
The whole issue of discouraging immigration in the case of Ethiopian Jews is a red herring. Israel deliberately imported these people to Israel, at considerable expense.
I think it's something DS wants Israel to do (and to the Russians :P), not something anyone's said Israel's done.
Quote from: DGuller on January 31, 2013, 05:02:31 PM
Nope, not Uncle Sam. For the first few months, though, we were supported by an organization called NYANA, which was a little more generous than welfare, and gave some stuff that was useful for people just off the boat.
In return were you expected to hire one unqualified Jew in the future? Turn a blind eye to one white collar crime committed by a Jew?
What was the nature of the understanding? :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 31, 2013, 05:08:52 PM
I think it's something DS wants Israel to do (and to the Russians :P), not something anyone's said Israel's done.
:glare: Israel is free to manage its own affairs as it sees fit. I merely offer my humble advice in hopes that our resident sons of Abraham relay it back to their brethren in the holy land.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 05:13:29 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 31, 2013, 05:02:31 PM
Nope, not Uncle Sam. For the first few months, though, we were supported by an organization called NYANA, which was a little more generous than welfare, and gave some stuff that was useful for people just off the boat.
In return were you expected to hire one unqualified Jew in the future? Turn a blind eye to one white collar crime committed by a Jew?
What was the nature of the understanding? :ph34r:
It was nothing sinister like that. :ph34r: I can't really go into details, I'm only allowed to give false reassurances.
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 04:09:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
I believe they are.
Food stamps and Medicaid are 5 year waits, or have paid into Social Security taxes for 10 years' worth of work history. You just don't show up and get them fresh from the airport.
Did I say that? Man, you are loaded for bear today, aren't you?
Quote from: Malthus on January 31, 2013, 04:56:13 PM
The whole issue of discouraging immigration in the case of Ethiopian Jews is a red herring.
It appears to derive from the mistaken conflation of statements about illegal immigrants from North Africa with the Falasha. Kind of ironic to lump all the "Africans" together that way in a news story alleging racism.
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 07:54:54 PM
Did I say that? Man, you are loaded for bear today, aren't you?
I never said you said that, Captain Sensitive. I merely elaborated on your statement.
If I were loaded for bear, I would've called you a stupid fucking immigrant hater. :hug:
Now if we could make these Mexicans not steal dvd's when doing housecleaning.....
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 04:09:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
I believe they are.
Food stamps and Medicaid are 5 year waits, or have paid into Social Security taxes for 10 years' worth of work history. You just don't show up and get them fresh from the airport.
Not only that, but in order to receive your green card you have to show solvency by whomever is sponsoring you. When Max moved down here from Canada, I had to provide my tax returns to show that I could support him. I didn't make enough, so a friend had to co-sign that she would sponsor him, and that she would be liable if he applied for or received government hand-outs.
The only exception, from what I understand, is those who come in under refugee status. They have a lot of special rules, though.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 09:27:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 07:54:54 PM
Did I say that? Man, you are loaded for bear today, aren't you?
I never said you said that, Captain Sensitive. I merely elaborated on your statement.
If I were loaded for bear, I would've called you a stupid fucking immigrant hater. :hug:
And I could then tell you to fuck off as I'm married to an immigrant and thus immunized against such accusations :contract:
I made a simple statement and as with the other thread you're going apeshit over something I didn't even come close to saying.
Quote from: merithyn on January 31, 2013, 09:58:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 04:09:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
Kleve's question made me wonder. Are American green card holders eligible for food stamps and that sort of stuff? Section 8 vouchers? Medicaid?
I believe they are.
Food stamps and Medicaid are 5 year waits, or have paid into Social Security taxes for 10 years' worth of work history. You just don't show up and get them fresh from the airport.
Not only that, but in order to receive your green card you have to show solvency by whomever is sponsoring you. When Max moved down here from Canada, I had to provide my tax returns to show that I could support him. I didn't make enough, so a friend had to co-sign that she would sponsor him, and that she would be liable if he applied for or received government hand-outs.
The only exception, from what I understand, is those who come in under refugee status. They have a lot of special rules, though.
I had to show proof as well and she had to promise not to be a burden on the system & whatnot. Felt like a charade, since I'd have a hard time believing they actually come after you if the green card recipient gets on uncle sam's gravy train.
Derspiess, are your views and statements related to the current right wing antipathy towards the 14th amendment?
Raz is off his meds again :(
What?
Don't be coy. There has been talk in Republican circles about fixing the problem of "anchor babies", for a while now. The way discussed is to modify the 14th amendment.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2013, 10:49:10 PM
Don't be coy. There has been talk in Republican circles about fixing the problem of "anchor babies", for a while now. The way discussed is to modify the 14th amendment.
Haven't been following it that much. You're apparently more plugged in than I am.
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2013, 10:49:10 PM
Don't be coy. There has been talk in Republican circles about fixing the problem of "anchor babies", for a while now. The way discussed is to modify the 14th amendment.
Haven't been following it that much. You're apparently more plugged in than I am.
Remember it from the Pdox boards. What is your opinion on birthright citizenship?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2013, 11:04:55 PM
Remember it from the Pdox boards. What is your opinion on birthright citizenship?
I think the chain migration thing is a bit of a problem but we need to think through the ramifications of taking away birthright citizenship and not make any hasty changes.
So I don't have a fully formed opinion on it yet. Sorry-- I know you were spoiling for a fight.
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:25:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 09:27:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 07:54:54 PM
Did I say that? Man, you are loaded for bear today, aren't you?
I never said you said that, Captain Sensitive. I merely elaborated on your statement.
If I were loaded for bear, I would've called you a stupid fucking immigrant hater. :hug:
And I could then tell you to fuck off as I'm married to an immigrant and thus immunized against such accusations :contract:
I made a simple statement and as with the other thread you're going apeshit over something I didn't even come close to saying.
I didn't go apeshit over anything, merely expanded on what you said, but as usual, you're being hypersensitive again.
And this is why people like you shouldn't be allowed to have guns.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 11:28:42 PM
I didn't go apeshit over anything, merely expanded on what you said, but as usual, you're being hypersensitive again.
:lol: Okay, you're trolling me. I get it.
Yi asked a question, you answered, I elaborated and with an emphasis that you apparently interpreted as an attack on you.
You know, d, I don't always challenge you on every subject. Just mainly ones with fetuses, guns, and fetuses with guns that should know their traditional gender roles.
So lighten up, Francis.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 01, 2013, 12:45:15 AM
Yi asked a question, you answered, I elaborated and with an emphasis that you apparently interpreted as an attack on you.
You know, d, I don't always challenge you on every subject. Just mainly ones with fetuses, guns, and fetuses with guns that should know their traditional gender roles.
So lighten up, Francis.
I gave a simple answer that *you* misinterpreted.
Quote from: derspiess on February 01, 2013, 01:02:17 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 01, 2013, 12:45:15 AM
Yi asked a question, you answered, I elaborated and with an emphasis that you apparently interpreted as an attack on you.
You know, d, I don't always challenge you on every subject. Just mainly ones with fetuses, guns, and fetuses with guns that should know their traditional gender roles.
So lighten up, Francis.
I gave a simple answer that *you* misinterpreted.
I don't see how my affirmation of your answer is a misinterpretation, but whatever, kitten.