Carl said something the other day that made me think of innumerable discussions in this place.
The context was some bratty actions of his (older) cousins, who were over at my house for a party. The ended up downstairs playing with a little toy tent I got for Carl, and were temporarily out of adult sight, when they proceeded to trash the tent - and broke the rods holding it together. Little bastards.
Anyway, Carl was surveying the damage the next day, and said "poor tent is broken. [The Cousins] broke my tent".
Then he proceeded to the following dialogue, which could have been lifted verbatim from a Kohlberg paper:
[Carl] "Breaking other people's things is naughty".
[Me] "Why is it naughty?"
[Carl] "Because mommy will make you "time-out"".
[Me] "But [the Cousin's] mommies didn't make them "time-out" when they broke your tent [true: they never punish their brats, which is why they are insufferable brats]"
[Carl] "They should have. Breaking things is naughty".
I feel dizzy. Just like when I read Bmolsson's posts.
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on May 19, 2009, 01:46:07 PM
I feel dizzy. Just like when I read Bmolsson's posts.
L.
Carl's not ready for the dealership in Borneo. :unsure:
Kohlberg used circular reasoning?
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
Anyway, it must be great having a kid. :)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 01:57:36 PM
Kohlberg used circular reasoning?
:lol:
Kohlberg was classifying how others reasoned. You can't really expect perfect logic from a three year old.
Point is that this is a pretty good illustration of stage 1 reasoning: doing certain things are "bad" because you will be punished by an authority figure.
The fact that the appropriate authority figures failed to impose the expected punishment creates a dilemma for poor Carl, which is leading him to a more abstract sort of reasoning ("...they should have").
Thus, from an example of "something that will get you punished", he's starting to develop principles or axioms - that "breaking other people's things is naughty" irrespective of actual punishment - and to in effect evaluate the actions of authority figures: failure to punish for breaking things = wrong.
Wow 'Time Out' really works as a deterrent eh? Raising kids is going to be easier than I thought. :cool:
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 01:57:36 PM
Kohlberg used circular reasoning?
:lol:
Kohlberg was classifying how others reasoned. You can't really expect perfect logic from a three year old.
Point is that this is a pretty good illustration of stage 1 reasoning: doing certain things are "bad" because you will be punished by an authority figure.
The fact that the appropriate authority figures failed to impose the expected punishment creates a dilemma for poor Carl, which is leading him to a more abstract sort of reasoning ("...they should have").
I was going to congratulate you over the fact that your kid already exhibits a more acute sense of morality than a lot of languishites, but then I realized that it could potentially sound like fighting words, comparing the boy to this cesspool of filth and scum. It's the thought that counts, though, I say.
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:05:23 PM
Wow 'Time Out' really works as a deterrent eh? Raising kids is going to be easier than I thought. :cool:
The secret is consistency. Anything clearly understood as a punishment and applied with justice and consistency will "work". For an active three year old, being forced to sit still for a minute and do nothing is an effective punishment for minor transgressions - but remember, to enforce it you have to do the same, deal with resulting whining and tantrums, etc. Believe me, this isn't always easy, particularly if you are doing something *you* want to do (like eating your dinner).
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:05:23 PM
Wow 'Time Out' really works as a deterrent eh? Raising kids is going to be easier than I thought. :cool:
The secret is consistency. Anything clearly understood as a punishment and applied with justice and consistency will "work". For an active three year old, being forced to sit still for a minute and do nothing is an effective punishment for minor transgressions - but remember, to enforce it you have to do the same, deal with resulting whining and tantrums, etc. Believe me, this isn't always easy, particularly if you are doing something *you* want to do (like eating your dinner).
Oh, I thought "time out" meant you knocked him unconscious. :P
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:08:26 PM
I was going to congratulate you over the fact that your kid already exhibits a more acute sense of morality than a lot of languishites, but then I realized that it could potentially sound like fighting words, comparing the boy to this cesspool of filth and scum. It's the thought that counts, though, I say.
I thought you didn't believe in morality. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:11:49 PM
Oh, I thought "time out" meant you knocked him unconscious. :P
That, while harsh, would also work.
Of course the brain damage from repeated concussions could prevent him from articulating more advanced moral concepts in the future. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:12:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:08:26 PM
I was going to congratulate you over the fact that your kid already exhibits a more acute sense of morality than a lot of languishites, but then I realized that it could potentially sound like fighting words, comparing the boy to this cesspool of filth and scum. It's the thought that counts, though, I say.
I thought you didn't believe in morality. ;)
:lol:
I believe in moralit
ies.
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:12:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:08:26 PM
I was going to congratulate you over the fact that your kid already exhibits a more acute sense of morality than a lot of languishites, but then I realized that it could potentially sound like fighting words, comparing the boy to this cesspool of filth and scum. It's the thought that counts, though, I say.
I thought you didn't believe in morality. ;)
:lol:
I believe in moralities.
But some are more "acute" than others, right? :D
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:00:20 PM
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
Anyway, it must be great having a kid. :)
Sometimes ... the worst part, I have found, in that the kid is a walking illness factory. Have a kid and you will get sick a lot ... while having to take care of a sick, cranky kid. Unfun.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:12:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:08:26 PM
I was going to congratulate you over the fact that your kid already exhibits a more acute sense of morality than a lot of languishites, but then I realized that it could potentially sound like fighting words, comparing the boy to this cesspool of filth and scum. It's the thought that counts, though, I say.
I thought you didn't believe in morality. ;)
:lol:
I believe in moralities.
But some are more "acute" than others, right? :D
I may agree or disagree with his assessment of the necessity to punish the evildoers, but what I was specifically talking about was the consistency of his capacity to judge and conclude what was "right" under the circumstances. Ie applying his moral imperatives in order to separate right from wrong by rule rather than by whim.
Fo sho, he's a tractor man, so his power of judgement must be held to be suspect. I was always more of a trains and sports cars kind of guy. But I will not hold that against him. He may grow up to be a reasonable fellow regardless.
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:30:01 PM
I may agree or disagree with his assessment of the necessity to punish the evildoers, but what I was specifically talking about was the consistency of his capacity to judge and conclude what was "right" under the circumstances. Ie applying his moral imperatives in order to separate right from wrong by rule rather than by whim.
Fo sho, he's a tractor man, so his power of judgement must be held to be suspect. I was always more of a trains and sports cars kind of guy. But I will not hold that against him. He may grow up to be a reasonable fellow regardless.
Carl LOVES trains and sports cars. :contract:
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
Because it guarantees citizenship.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
It's going to be an interesting ride all right.
Until he becomes a teen and then, so I hear, it all goes to hell. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:30:01 PM
I may agree or disagree with his assessment of the necessity to punish the evildoers, but what I was specifically talking about was the consistency of his capacity to judge and conclude what was "right" under the circumstances. Ie applying his moral imperatives in order to separate right from wrong by rule rather than by whim.
Fo sho, he's a tractor man, so his power of judgement must be held to be suspect. I was always more of a trains and sports cars kind of guy. But I will not hold that against him. He may grow up to be a reasonable fellow regardless.
Carl LOVES trains and sports cars. :contract:
In that case I rescind my sole objection. Job well done.
Aside from the curly jew hair.
But it's not fair to blame you for that.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
The secret is consistency. Anything clearly understood as a punishment and applied with justice and consistency will "work".
I'm starting to learn this myself. As lazy & inconsistent as I generally am, I've been able to maintain consistency when it comes to keeping my (nearly) 16-month old in line. His mom tends to bend the rules a bit, to the point where he'll sometimes ignore her when she tells him no, but will always stop (or at least pause) when I raise my voice at him.
A more extreme example is my nephew, who is a great kid but has subpar discipline and (IMO) slow development, thanks to, among other things, everyone in the family (except for me) bending over backward to keep him from crying or being unhappy in any way :rolleyes:
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
It's going to be an interesting ride all right.
Until he becomes a teen and then, so I hear, it all goes to hell. :lol:
You'll have it a bit easier, with him being a male.
When girls turn 14, the hell begins.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:32:42 PM
It's going to be an interesting ride all right.
Until he becomes a teen and then, so I hear, it all goes to hell. :lol:
Right now I am in the sweet spot where the boys are old enough to do lots of cool stuff and still young enough that they think that doing stuff with their parents is cool.
I hear that second part will end soon.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:50:20 PM
I hear that second part will end soon.
I still think doing stuff with my Dad is cool :blush:
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
What do you tell him?
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:37:38 PM
In that case I rescind my sole objection. Job well done.
Aside from the curly jew hair.
But it's not fair to blame you for that.
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
Does that mean he will never get invited to join the International Jewish Conspiracy? :(
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Wait a few years and you start fielding questions about why people go to war etc.
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
Yeah, that too. One of the most challenging questions I have had to field from the boys is "What is God". The question about how the universe can expand but at the same time have no edge was hard too.
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
What do you tell him?
That lots of people have very different beliefs about God, and we should respect all of them.
In a nutshell.
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
Does that mean he will never get invited to join the International Jewish Conspiracy? :(
Are you crazy. He is perfect for infiltration operations.
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:55:44 PM
That lots of people have very different beliefs about God, and we should respect all of them.
In a nutshell.
Great answer. I should note that for future use.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 01:38:05 PM
[Carl] "Breaking other people's things is naughty".
[Me] "Why is it naughty?"
[Carl] "Because mommy will make you "time-out"".
[Me] "But [the Cousin's] mommies didn't make them "time-out" when they broke your tent [true: they never punish their brats, which is why they are insufferable brats]"
[Carl] "They should have. Breaking things is naughty".
:lol: Cute, what a good kid.
Quote from: derspiess on May 19, 2009, 02:46:30 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
The secret is consistency. Anything clearly understood as a punishment and applied with justice and consistency will "work".
I'm starting to learn this myself. As lazy & inconsistent as I generally am, I've been able to maintain consistency when it comes to keeping my (nearly) 16-month old in line. His mom tends to bend the rules a bit, to the point where he'll sometimes ignore her when she tells him no, but will always stop (or at least pause) when I raise my voice at him.
A more extreme example is my nephew, who is a great kid but has subpar discipline and (IMO) slow development, thanks to, among other things, everyone in the family (except for me) bending over backward to keep him from crying or being unhappy in any way :rolleyes:
... thus ensuring he will be unhappy, permanently. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Kids need discipline: as they grow up, it is the only guide they have to classify behaviour as good or bad.
What I think (again personal opinion) is that many believe discipline must be harsh in order to be effective. I don't think this is the case - what it has to be is
credible, teaching the kid that bad behaviour has consequences, and reliable & consistent.
A kid will not listen if you merely *tell* him not to do something.
One disciplinary tool I have found effective when time-outs are not enough is to remove the kid when he's being disruptive. For example, at a family party Carl was acting up & causing a disturbance - running around screaming. We timed him out but he did not stop (I could hardly blame him, as other kids were running screaming - his cousins - & their parents did not discipline them). So we told Carl 'if you don't stop we will leave". He didn't stop so we left (much to the surprise of the rest of the family I might add).
Next time, he was at a family party & running around screaming; we again told him that of he didn't behave we would leave, and this scared him into obedience since he knew we were not kidding.
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
Does that mean he will never get invited to join the International Jewish Conspiracy? :(
It means he'll be a valuable operative. ;) Though he's not Jewish by birth, of course.
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
My oldest daughter's fond of those kinds of questions too.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
What I think (again personal opinion) is that many believe discipline must be harsh in order to be effective. I don't think this is the case - what it has to be is credible, teaching the kid that bad behaviour has consequences, and reliable & consistent.
A kid will not listen if you merely *tell* him not to do something.
One disciplinary tool I have found effective when time-outs are not enough is to remove the kid when he's being disruptive. For example, at a family party Carl was acting up & causing a disturbance - running around screaming. We timed him out but he did not stop (I could hardly blame him, as other kids were running screaming - his cousins - & their parents did not discipline them). So we told Carl 'if you don't stop we will leave". He didn't stop so we left (much to the surprise of the rest of the family I might add).
Next time, he was at a family party & running around screaming; we again told him that of he didn't behave we would leave, and this scared him into obedience since he knew we were not kidding.
:yes: The easiest way to get burned with your kids is to make threats upon which you have no intention of acting.
So beat them.
Teach them about angry God. If you gotta go, go nuts.
Quote from: fahdiz on May 19, 2009, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Jake has been known to ask why people believe in God.
My oldest daughter's fond of those kinds of questions too.
That's when I'll sit my child in front of TV.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2009, 02:37:38 PM
In that case I rescind my sole objection. Job well done.
Aside from the curly jew hair.
But it's not fair to blame you for that.
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
:o
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
:lol:
Carl looks like an Aryan Hitler Youth poster child. :P
Does that mean he will never get invited to join the International Jewish Conspiracy? :(
It means he'll be a valuable operative. ;) Though he's not Jewish by birth, of course.
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
How are you a little Jewish?
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
... thus ensuring he will be unhappy, permanently. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Kids need discipline: as they grow up, it is the only guide they have to classify behaviour as good or bad.
What I think (again personal opinion) is that many believe discipline must be harsh in order to be effective. I don't think this is the case - what it has to be is credible, teaching the kid that bad behaviour has consequences, and reliable & consistent.
A kid will not listen if you merely *tell* him not to do something.
The way things typically go with my nephew is that he will act up until someone finally puts their foot down, then he cries & said person (unless it's me) is way too quick to console/placate him. So he cries a lot. We were all on a mini-vacation last week-- I lost count of the number of times he cried over stupid things.
He's not so much a hell-raiser, per se, but he has a lot of bad habits. I'm pretty convinced that the main reason he acts so infantile is his mom-- she seems to want to keep him (and his sister) a baby as long as possible. So at over 2.5 years old, he still has a pacifier (which is affecting his speech and his teeth), still wears diapers (sister in law always seems to want to potty train him 'next month') and is constantly yelling for his mommy to do this or that for him.
I love the kid to death, but he needs to start maturing.
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
Ethnically, he's not born "Jewish", but whether he sympathizes with his Jewish heritage or not is really going to be up to him; as will what religion, if any, he chooses to adopt.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
Ethnically, he's not born "Jewish", but whether he sympathizes with his Jewish heritage or not is really going to be up to him; as will what religion, if any, he chooses to adopt.
...as long as it's Mysticism.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
One disciplinary tool I have found effective when time-outs are not enough is to remove the kid when he's being disruptive. For example, at a family party Carl was acting up & causing a disturbance - running around screaming. We timed him out but he did not stop (I could hardly blame him, as other kids were running screaming - his cousins - & their parents did not discipline them). So we told Carl 'if you don't stop we will leave". He didn't stop so we left (much to the surprise of the rest of the family I might add).
Next time, he was at a family party & running around screaming; we again told him that of he didn't behave we would leave, and this scared him into obedience since he knew we were not kidding.
This will work until he figures out that misbehaving will get him out of events that he doesn't want to attend. ;)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
I thought Malthus parents were both jewish?
Anyway, Medinat Yisrael (The State), recognizes as jewish anyone with one (1) jewish grandparent, on either the father or the mother's line.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
Depends on how you measure these things. Accoeding to our wierd Ashkenazi ways, ethnicity is matrilinial in the same way that one's last name is patrilinial; I get my father's last name and my mother's ethnicity. I am not half-[last name] and I am not half-Jewish; similarly, my kid has my last name, but not my ethnicity.
That says nothing about what parts of his heritage he will choose to sympathize with.
Quote from: The Brain on May 19, 2009, 03:40:13 PM
...as long as it's Mysticism.
Wrong. You can't dictate that someone adopt mysticism, since that is something you must experience (or not). Chance, and his own atributes and experiences, will determine whether he's into mysticism.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 19, 2009, 03:40:13 PM
...as long as it's Mysticism.
Wrong. You can't dictate that someone adopt mysticism, since that is something you must experience (or not). Chance, and his own atributes and experiences, will determine whether he's into mysticism.
And whatever you teach him.
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:43:37 PM
I thought Malthus parents were both jewish?
Anyway, Medinat Yisrael (The State), recognizes as jewish anyone with one (1) jewish grandparent, on either the father or the mother's line.
Nope, my dad is most definitely not Jewish.
The definition of "Jew" used by the state of Israel is sort of irrelevant - that pre-supposes one *wishes* to be thought a Jew. For Carl, that is not certain - it will be up to him to choose.
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:47:04 PM
And whatever you teach him.
You can teach all you want, but you cannot dictate experience.
Not everyone is suited to mysticism, and much of what is claimed as "mystic" is bullshit or charlitanism (I know many will interject with "all", but I disagree :P ). IMO, the best thing to teach is a skeptical attitute, and offer a good education in the basics of religious belief.
Quote from: The Brain on May 19, 2009, 03:48:34 PM
Worst religion ever.
True, as a
religion it sucks. :)
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
... thus ensuring he will be unhappy, permanently. Or at least, that's how I see it.
I agree, incidentally, but I see you've got the requisite "if you don't raise your kid like I do, you' re worse than Hitler" routine down pat. ;) :lol:
And I should know, I remember this conversation I had with my friend about the values of something called "co-sleeping" (my friend's way) vs. my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday. Which took some tough love to implement at first, but I was (silently) mortified by his (in my view then) mollycoddling, heretical ways, and we kept politely raising each other's bloodpressure talking about the various pros and cons, until I realized that we were both speaking in sharp clipped sentences to each other, and that I was being a dick. :lol:
The running joke between us for the next few months consisted of mock insults about parenting skills and speculation on the various ways in which our boys would enlist our help in the cruel fight with strict Mommy.
* The One True Path To Parental Salvation, btw.
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:50:24 PM
You can teach all you want, but you cannot dictate experience.
One of the biggest problems with Biblical religions is you pretty much have to study them to understand at all why people regard them so highly. Just sitting around talking about them it sounds pretty silly ('sooo...there is this God who really hates Egpytians...')
Quote from: Legbiter on May 19, 2009, 05:44:26 PM
my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday.
So he slept in your room until he was a year old? :huh:
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
Depends on how you measure these things. Accoeding to our wierd Ashkenazi ways, ethnicity is matrilinial in the same way that one's last name is patrilinial; I get my father's last name and my mother's ethnicity. I am not half-[last name] and I am not half-Jewish; similarly, my kid has my last name, but not my ethnicity.
That says nothing about what parts of his heritage he will choose to sympathize with.
How come the world isn't full of non-Jewish Weinsteins with this way of doing things?
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 19, 2009, 05:44:26 PM
my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday.
So he slept in your room until he was a year old? :huh:
Not everyone keeps their newborn in the dog-pen in order to determine whether they are strong enough to be allowed to live, you monster. :mad:
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2009, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 19, 2009, 05:44:26 PM
my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday.
So he slept in your room until he was a year old? :huh:
Not everyone keeps their newborn in the dog-pen in order to determine whether they are strong enough to be allowed to live, you monster. :mad:
THIS IS SPARTA!
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2009, 08:55:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
Depends on how you measure these things. Accoeding to our wierd Ashkenazi ways, ethnicity is matrilinial in the same way that one's last name is patrilinial; I get my father's last name and my mother's ethnicity. I am not half-[last name] and I am not half-Jewish; similarly, my kid has my last name, but not my ethnicity.
That says nothing about what parts of his heritage he will choose to sympathize with.
How come the world isn't full of non-Jewish Weinsteins with this way of doing things?
Because Malthus is using the most ashkenazi orthodox view on who's jew or not, to justify his kid not being jewish.
He doesn't want his boy to be jewish.
Quote from: Legbiter on May 19, 2009, 05:44:26 PM
I agree, incidentally, but I see you've got the requisite "if you don't raise your kid like I do, you' re worse than Hitler" routine down pat. ;) :lol:
Heh, I'm usually pretty open to multiple ways of doing things - but a total lack of discipline is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, as Carl's cousins are being raised with this approach and I routinely have to suffer the results. :(
QuoteAnd I should know, I remember this conversation I had with my friend about the values of something called "co-sleeping" (my friend's way) vs. my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday. Which took some tough love to implement at first, but I was (silently) mortified by his (in my view then) mollycoddling, heretical ways, and we kept politely raising each other's bloodpressure talking about the various pros and cons, until I realized that we were both speaking in sharp clipped sentences to each other, and that I was being a dick. :lol:
The running joke between us for the next few months consisted of mock insults about parenting skills and speculation on the various ways in which our boys would enlist our help in the cruel fight with strict Mommy.
* The One True Path To Parental Salvation, btw.
Our kid never slept in our room at all, so I avoided this. :lol:
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2009, 08:55:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 19, 2009, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 19, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Says who?
North American ashkenazi jews are funny. You guys let the black hats tell you what you are and what you aren't. You need to live in israel for a while and learn to be free. According to our enemies, and according to the State of Israel, your kid is jewish. You should teach him that, regardless, so he doesn't get surprissed when the wolves come knocking on the door.
I thought you worked in Eretz for a while, didn't you? How come you don't know that your kid is jewish?
His kid is only 1/4 Jewish.
Depends on how you measure these things. Accoeding to our wierd Ashkenazi ways, ethnicity is matrilinial in the same way that one's last name is patrilinial; I get my father's last name and my mother's ethnicity. I am not half-[last name] and I am not half-Jewish; similarly, my kid has my last name, but not my ethnicity.
That says nothing about what parts of his heritage he will choose to sympathize with.
How come the world isn't full of non-Jewish Weinsteins with this way of doing things?
For one, many Jews marry other Jews.
With intermarriage common, you will indeed see lots of non-Jewish people with Jewish last names.
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 19, 2009, 05:44:26 PM
my way*, which consisted of moving my first son into a separate room next to our bedroom after his first birthday.
So he slept in your room until he was a year old? :huh:
Mollycoddling at its worst.
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 09:22:08 AM
Because Malthus is using the most ashkenazi orthodox view on who's jew or not, to justify his kid not being jewish.
He doesn't want his boy to be jewish.
Don't be silly. There is no "one drop rule" for Judaism, whatever Nazi types might think.
Look at it this way - I'm 100% Jewish in spite of having only one Jewish parent, under The Rules(tm); Carl has only one Jewish
grandparent - of his four immediate ancestors, one is Jewish, one is Anglo, and two are Ukranian. It is a trifle odd to insist that he is born "Jewish" under these circumstances, when he is not Jewish under The Rules(tm) created by Rabbis for this sort of thing and his ancestry is only 1/4 Jewish.
I'm perfectly proud of being Jewish myself - why would I not want Carl to be? But by any rational measure, he isn't *born* to it. If he later *chooses* to identify with that strain of his ethnic heritage, I'll be happy with that.
Quote from: Malthus on May 20, 2009, 09:58:27 AM
I'm perfectly proud of being Jewish myself - why would I not want Carl to be? But by any rational measure, he isn't *born* to it. If he later *chooses* to identify with that strain of his ethnic heritage, I'll be happy with that.
And why wouldn't he be?
You have Einstein on your side...what do the Ukrainians have to counter that? :P
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2009, 10:17:16 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 20, 2009, 09:58:27 AM
I'm perfectly proud of being Jewish myself - why would I not want Carl to be? But by any rational measure, he isn't *born* to it. If he later *chooses* to identify with that strain of his ethnic heritage, I'll be happy with that.
And why wouldn't he be?
You have Einstein on your side...what do the Ukrainians have to counter that? :P
I see you neglected the most successful strain. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I see you neglected the most successful strain. :P
:bowler:
But neither of his Parents really identify with old Blighty except to the extent they are Canadians :(
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I see you neglected the most successful strain. :P
:bowler:
But neither of his Parents really identify with old Blighty except to the extent they are Canadians :(
By "Anglo" I should mention that my father's side of the family has been in British North America essentially since it was first colonized. His folk originally came from New England, where my aunt traced an ancestress who was hanged as a witch before the Salem trials (but survived and lived another 20 years) ... Half-Hanged Mary. :D
Quote from: Malthus on May 20, 2009, 09:49:26 AM
Our kid never slept in our room at all, so I avoided this. :lol:
We moved Tommy to his own room as soon as my in-laws vacated it (he was about 1 to 1.5 months old). He definitely likes having his own space to sleep now. If he's not feeling well & we try to get him to sleep in our bed, he throws a fit :D
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:00:20 PM
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
I didn't even
have to "wait" for you to demonstrate that you don't "get" Kohlberg's ideas, nor my understanding of them. :P
Carl was showing exactly what Kohlberg predicted: his first-stage moral reasoning didn't resolve his moral problem, so he is advancing towards stage 2. Good for him, and interesting that malthus caught that.
Am I the only one that tought this thread would cover the siege of Colberg 1806-1807? :nerd:
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 06:24:54 AM
Am I the only one that tought this thread would cover the siege of Colberg 1806-1807? :nerd:
Or the movie from '45. :Goebbels:
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2009, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:00:20 PM
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
I didn't even have to "wait" for you to demonstrate that you don't "get" Kohlberg's ideas, nor my understanding of them. :P
Carl was showing exactly what Kohlberg predicted: his first-stage moral reasoning didn't resolve his moral problem, so he is advancing towards stage 2. Good for him, and interesting that malthus caught that.
He's like my own little science project. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on May 20, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
By "Anglo" I should mention that my father's side of the family has been in British North America essentially since it was first colonized. His folk originally came from New England, where my aunt traced an ancestress who was hanged as a witch before the Salem trials (but survived and lived another 20 years) ... Half-Hanged Mary. :D
Uh oh now Carl will decide to become a Wiccan out of solidarity with his half-hanged ancestors.
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2009, 08:13:10 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 20, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
By "Anglo" I should mention that my father's side of the family has been in British North America essentially since it was first colonized. His folk originally came from New England, where my aunt traced an ancestress who was hanged as a witch before the Salem trials (but survived and lived another 20 years) ... Half-Hanged Mary. :D
Uh oh now Carl will decide to become a Wiccan out of solidarity with his half-hanged ancestors.
Heh she was a *real* witch, none of that Wiccan goody goody pagan new age bullshit - the kind who (allegedly) haunted a sick man to his death, caused milk to curdle in the cow, etc.
History:
http://faculty.uml.edu/bmarshall/Mary%20Webster.htm
Poem about same:
http://www.janaedwards.com/FILECABINET/HALFhangedmaryhoriz.doc
Quote from: Malthus on May 21, 2009, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2009, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:00:20 PM
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
I didn't even have to "wait" for you to demonstrate that you don't "get" Kohlberg's ideas, nor my understanding of them. :P
Carl was showing exactly what Kohlberg predicted: his first-stage moral reasoning didn't resolve his moral problem, so he is advancing towards stage 2. Good for him, and interesting that malthus caught that.
He's like my own little science project. :lol:
I think you need to get another kid.
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 21, 2009, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2009, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2009, 02:00:20 PM
I'm waiting for grumbler to arrive in order to demolish the logical inconsistencies in Carl's argument. :P
I didn't even have to "wait" for you to demonstrate that you don't "get" Kohlberg's ideas, nor my understanding of them. :P
Carl was showing exactly what Kohlberg predicted: his first-stage moral reasoning didn't resolve his moral problem, so he is advancing towards stage 2. Good for him, and interesting that malthus caught that.
He's like my own little science project. :lol:
I think you need to get another kid.
:yes: The control group.
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 06:24:54 AM
Am I the only one that tought this thread would cover the siege of Colberg 1806-1807? :nerd:
No, because Kolberg is spelled without h. :P
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
I think you need to get another kid.
The double blinding aspect may be a bit of a problem.
Quote from: Malthus on May 21, 2009, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
I think you need to get another kid.
The double blinding aspect may be a bit of a problem.
I guess in Canada it would also be considered child abuse.
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2009, 08:55:44 AM
:yes: The control group.
That would be the cousins.
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2009, 11:43:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 21, 2009, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
I think you need to get another kid.
The double blinding aspect may be a bit of a problem.
I guess in Canada it would also be considered child abuse.
:lmfao: